lucillemara
Member
was the haitian revolution racist against white people?
Gammon is not racist
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lucillemara
Member
I'm being prescriptive, I'm saying people shouldn't use the word in obfuscating ways to downplay white supremacy
lucillemara
Member
anyway fuck white people, kill them all. ban me you cunts.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Good job nobody has done that then.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Lots of long words I don't understand then poorly worded abuse.
Bit lame really.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think they've gone, maybe to burn a school down or something...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
lots of long words they don't understand then poorly worded abuse.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you should have said that to start with
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Easily understood. Pithy.
Right off the top of my head, and I'm ready and willing to be corrected because this is guesswork, I'd say that in Europe where manual agricultural work made people go brown then a way of spotting people who lived off surplus value was that they managed to remain 'gentle men' and 'fair ladies'. It was how to spot people who didn't work, or who worked without getting dirty.
'White collar' and 'blue collar' is much the same idea.
I daresay other places came up with other ways of doing much the same. Brahmins must have had a way of spotting each other.
It's interesting that when the term 'white n-----' came up it was used when and where this system got broken. It was a common term in 19th C United States for Irish people and apparently for French Canadians at much the same time.
So it's symbolic of more power and status, even when that's largely imaginary as in the situation of poor white people in the Southern States.
Whether or not 'racist' only means how the historic oppressor describes the historically oppressed is a matter for usage. That seems to be part of this debate. Either way I think that if PoC or other white people use terms for white people like 'gammon' it plays into those white people's hands.
And it probably needs a word to describe it.
As I said before it's highly tempting to give people who bandy around words like 'snowflakes, cucks, remoaners' as if that was a sensible thing to do a bit of their own medicine, but really it's descending to their level of discourse.
'White collar' and 'blue collar' is much the same idea.
I daresay other places came up with other ways of doing much the same. Brahmins must have had a way of spotting each other.
It's interesting that when the term 'white n-----' came up it was used when and where this system got broken. It was a common term in 19th C United States for Irish people and apparently for French Canadians at much the same time.
So it's symbolic of more power and status, even when that's largely imaginary as in the situation of poor white people in the Southern States.
Whether or not 'racist' only means how the historic oppressor describes the historically oppressed is a matter for usage. That seems to be part of this debate. Either way I think that if PoC or other white people use terms for white people like 'gammon' it plays into those white people's hands.
And it probably needs a word to describe it.
As I said before it's highly tempting to give people who bandy around words like 'snowflakes, cucks, remoaners' as if that was a sensible thing to do a bit of their own medicine, but really it's descending to their level of discourse.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
alternatively they could have just looked at their hands. and you seem to have missed the entire chivalry / military service thing among the ruling classes
So fighting on a horse was more noble than fighting on foot, because it showed you had a horse.
And could run away more easily!
You're right about hands, but they couldn't be seen from such a distance.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm interested in that point, and some if the others you've made. But you seem to skip from one to another, with little coherence.
What's the central point you're trying to make? It's it that people who are considered white (at a given time and place) cannot be victims of racism, because racism requires more than racial predjudice; to be a victim of racism requires being part of a group that is oppressed on racial grounds because of structural power differentials (regardless of relative individual power dynamics in the specific incident)?
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
nothing to do with that, you're on about people from the lower orders being tanned / dirty. so would campaigning or practicing soldiers.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
When I used to take racial abuse as a kid I used to get incredibly frustrated that there were no insults for white people of equal weight that I could respond with, so I get why today's PoC youngsters are co-opting some of these terms. In most cases it's seen as retaliatory but that doesn't make it right or even effective in achieving their aims. In many cases I disagree that one shouldn't descend to an opponent’s level as it's quite often an effective tactic. I use it frequently. With regards to racist language though, it propagates stuff like "it's ok to be white" and perpetuates the nastiness.
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lucillemara
Member
Imperialism leaves behind germs of rot which we must clinically detect and remove from our land but from our minds as well. - Fanon
The problem of the twenty-first century, then, is the problem of the color-blind. This problem is simple: it believes that to redress racism, we need to not consider race in social practice, notably in the sphere of governmental action. The state, we are told, must be above race. ... We are led to believe that racism is prejudicial behavior of one party against another rather than the coagulation of socioeconomic injustice against groups. If the state acts without prejudice (this is, if it acts equally), then that is proof of the end of racism. Unequal socioeconomic conditions of today, based as they are on racisms of the past and of the present, are thereby rendered untouchable by the state. Color-blind justice privatizes inequality and racism, and it removes itself from the project of redistributive and anti-racist justice. This is the genteel racism of our new millennium. - Prashad
The problem of the twenty-first century, then, is the problem of the color-blind. This problem is simple: it believes that to redress racism, we need to not consider race in social practice, notably in the sphere of governmental action. The state, we are told, must be above race. ... We are led to believe that racism is prejudicial behavior of one party against another rather than the coagulation of socioeconomic injustice against groups. If the state acts without prejudice (this is, if it acts equally), then that is proof of the end of racism. Unequal socioeconomic conditions of today, based as they are on racisms of the past and of the present, are thereby rendered untouchable by the state. Color-blind justice privatizes inequality and racism, and it removes itself from the project of redistributive and anti-racist justice. This is the genteel racism of our new millennium. - Prashad
lucillemara
Member
my answer would be yes, that is vaguely what I'm getting at
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
You can feel a hand when you shake it though. people, especially men IMO, still judge each other by their handshake. And rough/smooth does come into that judgement.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's Prashad the cheerer on of assad's barrel bombing of civilians sectarian death squads and toture/rape cells. Good guide.
lucillemara
Member
yeah and marx raped his maid, so what
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yeah, so what.
lucillemara
Member
because whiteness is inherently violent and would not exist without the need to justify the congenital inferiority of colonised and subjugated populations
lucillemara
Member
assadism and rape are both awful, so either we drop them both or we take what we can use and drop the rest, both valid responses
do you disagree with the quote? it seems fairly self evident to me
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Zero interest after that prior response.
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