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Gammon is not racist

Smokeandsteam said:
I am genuinely at a loss to understand how the comments on this thread have led you to conclude that urban posters do not recognise the historical reality of colonialism and imperialism and power relations and the contemporary consequences.

As I’m sure you know, contemporary understandings of race arent linear.

Explain to me then how you’ve drawn this conclusion and what evidence exists for it
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when I tried to link whiteness to colonialism people mocked me for it precisely because I was not using a linear or static definition of race - of course Irish people have always been white and therefore anti-Irish racism is an example of racism against white people!!! etc. that evidence is in the thread. people are equivocating between "racism against white people" as racism against anyone they would consider white and "racism against white people" as racism people experience for being white (far right talking point) - and insisting an an ahistorical presentist and idealist notion of race to make that work

would anti-irish racism exist without colonial violence? have black and asian people colonised britain?
 
Saul Goodman said:
But if it's being used as a white power symbol, then it is racist, regardless of whether some people are unaware of it.
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Asking a butcher for a gammon joint or a diver giving the OK sign is obviously not racist and I think the definition of racism with regards to power dynamics that some are using here is only half the picture. xenon is right; if someone's intention is to cause offence or ridicule by referring to the colour of another's skin, that's racist.The power dynamics between those involved may compound the weight of the racism, but it's still racism.
 
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fascists like to say "it's ok to be white" because it sounds inoffensive enough without context. is it racist to disagree with them? is it racist to oppose white pride? is accusing racist white liberal feminists of "white feminism" an example of racism against white people? is "all lives matter" an anti-racist statement?
 
lucillemara said:
fascists like to say "it's ok to be white" because it sounds inoffensive enough without context. is it racist to disagree with them? is it racist to oppose white pride? is accusing racist white liberal feminists of "white feminism" an example of racism against white people? is "all lives matter" an anti-racist statement?
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What do you think?
 
lucillemara said:
when I tried to link whiteness to colonialism people mocked me for it precisely because I was not using a linear or static definition of race - of course Irish people have always been white and therefore anti-Irish racism is an example of racism against white people!!! etc. that evidence is in the thread. people are equivocating between "racism against white people" as racism against anyone they would consider white and "racism against white people" as racism people experience for being white (far right talking point) - and insisting an an ahistorical presentist and idealist notion of race to make that work

would anti-irish racism exist without colonial violence? have black and asian people colonised britain?
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Where you're going wrong is by saying one thing and upon its refutation going "ah but I did not mean what I said, I meant this instead", that is by being dishonest

You said in effect white people do not experience racism. But there are many, many examples of that. Then you said white people do not experience racism on the basis of their being white, which is rather different. But in response to *that*, do you think the murder of for example Richard Everitt was a racist killing? There are all sorts of racism, some of greater and others of lesser frequency and occurrence, and while I would admit racism against white people as a group is ime rare, I would not deny its existence.
 
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how do we avoid racism against white people? when I did a course on american history a lot of white people thought it was racist, because it didn't make white people look very nice. the press relentlessly harasses and abuses any non-white academic suspected of anti-whiteness while white supremacist historians are minor celebrities. is it racist for black people to complain about white people among themselves while discussing racism they have experienced? should they go out of their way to emphasise they don't mean all white people?
 
Pickman's model said:
Where you're going wrong is by saying one thing and upon its refutation going "ah but I did not mean what I said, I meant this instead", that is by being dishonest
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where did I do that? I would have phrased things more carefully if I knew the bad faith equivocation was coming, but I fail to see what has been refuted except for what was left of my faith in the white left's anti-racism- the entire thread is about "racism against white people" for being white, which has nothing to do with racism against or between people who are considered white in certain times or places. this isn't difficult and I don't believe you don't understand this.
 
lucillemara said:
where did I do that? I would have phrased things more carefully if I knew the bad faith equivocation was coming, but I fail to see what has been refuted except for what was left of my faith in the white left's anti-racism- the entire thread is about "racism against white people" for being white, which has nothing to do with racism against or between people who are considered white in certain times or places. this isn't difficult and I don't believe you don't understand this.
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On this very thread as well you know

As for what you believe I care not a jot
 
when michael richards made a lynching threat and repeatedly used the n word at a black heckler, the heckler responded with "cracker". both sides just as bad right?
 
I'm trying to say that racism is an actual thing that actually happens in the actual world due to actual power differentials that actually exist due to actual social and historical activity, and can't be abstracted into "thought experiments" where everything is otherwise equal so that a racial class that only exists due to violence can play victim.
 
lucillemara said:
I'm trying say that racism is an actual thing that actually happens in the actual world due to actual power differentials that actually exist due to actual social and historical activity, and can't be abstracted into "thought experiments" where everything is otherwise equal so that a racial class that only exists due to violence can play victim.
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Go on then
 
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