Gammon is not racist

[belboid]

Oh god . The term is racist when it's being used as a derogatory way to describe white people. In THAT context. Is that simple enough for you?

You've wibbled and wobbled about all kinds of silliness; made up some daft comparison with domestic abuse; and now you're going to pretend ... what?

Answer those questions and I reckon the penny will drop for you. Seriously. Just try it and see if you have a lightbulb moment.

I haven't wibbled at all, it seems some things are just too complex for you. Like things requiring more than one component.

So, I disagree with your latest definition(s). A term has to be more than derogatory, even when used against a specfic racial grouping. The use of that term has to have some power behind it, something to back it up. There's a reason why words like gammon, or honky, don't have the same power to offend behind them as the words used against people of colour.

 

[Saul Goodman]

It's not a very useful definition of 'racist' is it?

It's racist if it's racist.

Doesn't really get us very far.

Racism isn't a very useful definition of racism?

If a word is being used in a racially derogative manner, or as an 'ethnic slur', then how on earth is that not racism?

 

[belboid]

Racism isn't a very useful definition of racism?

If a word is being used in a racially derogative manner, or as an 'ethnic slur', then how on earth is that not racism?

Using a word to define itself is never helpful, is it?

Now, as I've been saying all along, 'racially derogatory manner' or 'racially prejudiced manner' are both perfectly valid definitions. I just don't agree with them. Racism is prejudice/derogatory manner PLUS power.

 

[Spymaster]

So, I disagree with your latest definition(s). A term has to be more than derogatory, even when used against a specfic racial grouping. The use of that term has to have some power behind it, something to back it up. There's a reason why words like gammon, or honky, don't have the same power to offend behind them as the words used against people of colour.

Another swerve! Is it the power to offend or the intention of being offensive?

 

[belboid]

Another swerve! Is it the power to offend or the intention of being offensive?

It's not a swerve, it's a direct answer. Sorry you can't recognise the difference.

And don't get me started on shite like 'offense'

 

[Spymaster]

If a word is being used in a racially derogative manner, or as an 'ethnic slur', then how on earth is that not racism?

He's just hiding now. He gets it but he won't answer the questions because he knows it'll collapse his silly stack of cards.

 

[Santino]

Liberal fucking gammons.

 

[Santino]

There's nothing as convincing as someone repeatedly insisting that they've won the argument.

 

[Santino]

No, YOU'RE angry. I'm shitting myself with laughter here.

 

[Spymaster]

And don't get me started on shite like 'offense'

YOU brought it up!

There's a reason why words like gammon, or honky, don't have the same power to offend behind them as the words used against people of colour.

 

[belboid]

YOU brought it up!

Fair point, for once. It's not really about 'offence' tho, is it? It's much more than that. But the anti-white words don't have the same of any kindf of power behind them as the anti-PoC ones, do they? Why is that?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Using a word to define itself is never helpful, is it?

Now, as I've been saying all along, 'racially derogatory manner' or 'racially prejudiced manner' are both perfectly valid definitions. I just don't agree with them. Racism is prejudice/derogatory manner PLUS power.

Does a white person spouting racial insults on a social media website hold any more power than a black person (or anyone who isn't white) doing the same?
If a black person in Africa (with an AK47) uses the term 'Gammon', could it possibly be racist? Or is racism reserved solely for white people?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fair point, for once. It's not really about 'offence' tho, is it? It's much more than that. But the anti-white words don't have the same of any kindf of power behind them as the anti-PoC ones, do they? Why is that?

Some forms of racism are more hurtful than others. Again, hoodathunk?

Aside from anything else, I think your (re)definition is politically useless. Worse than that, it's politically divisive. What gain is there in downplaying racist attitudes like that?

 

[Spymaster]

Fair point, for once. It's not really about 'offence' tho, is it? It's much more than that. But the anti-white words don't have the same of any kindf of power behind them as the anti-PoC ones, do they?

No. But that doesn't mean they're not racist.

If I (as an Asian) call you a bullshitting gammon, with gammon referring to you being a white man and it being a term of abuse (however mild) in my community, I would be being racist.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Does a white person spouting racial insults on a social media website hold any more power than a black person (or anyone who isn't white) doing the same?
If a black person in Africa (with an AK47) uses the term 'Gammon', could it possibly be racist? Or is racism reserved solely for white people?

Christ. Thick as fuck.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Because?

 

[Treacle Toes]

You don’t talk about black on black crime at all, do you?
Don’t forget, it’s considered racist for me to do so, so it’s entirely your ball park.
You said I didn’t discuss white on white crime yet you’ve been given an example of it this year.
Where’s your examples?

Are you seriously not drunk?

I manage to speak about a variety of violent situations without characterising them as White on White or Black on Black violence. You gave an example of discussing a situation where both the perp and the victim are white...you never once referred to them in that way in the thread though did you? So where is your actual example? I don't use the term 'working class' to mean White as you do. Why do you use the term 'WC' to mean White?

 

[TopCat]

I know, it's just a fucking joke now.

His MO has been a shit joke for years.

 

[mauvais]

Do you think the gammons or not-gammons or people of gammon or whatever you want to call them give a shit about any of this?

You'll be sat around trying hopelessly to sink each other's sneery-progressive battleships whilst ruddy-faced fucks of long-debated title are outside loading their fucking mantlepiece muskets and trying to ascend their pink peers to a wholly fictional version of the 17th century.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Do you think the gammons or not-gammons or people of gammon or whatever you want to call them give a shit about any of this?

You'll be sat around trying hopelessly to sink each other's sneery-progressive battleships whilst ruddy-faced fucks of long-debated title are outside loading their fucking mantlepiece muskets and trying to ascend their pink peers to a wholly fictional version of the 17th century.

You're, quite obviously, misunderstanding. You're (wrongly) assuming that 'gammon' is being used solely to describe ranting white people with power. This isn't the case.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

 

[Kaka Tim]

i think we should stop using the term "gammon" - we should refer to them as "people of ham".

 

[mauvais]

You're, quite obviously, misunderstanding. You're (wrongly) assuming that 'gammon' is being used solely to describe ranting white people with power. This isn't the case.

I know that's the tangent this thread has eventually gone off on. To try and reason why that's not important beyond this argumentative niche would be to engage in the very same folly as I'm pointing at, so I won't.

 

[Spymaster]

I know that's the tangent this thread has eventually gone off on.

It was the entire reason for the thread being started in the first place.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I know that's the tangent this thread has eventually gone off on. To try and reason why that's not important beyond this argumentative niche would be to engage in the very same folly as I'm pointing at, so I won't.

Except it isn't a tangent. It's the very root of the argument!
If you feel that racism isn't, and can't be, racism, unless it's dispensed by white people (of power?), then, IMHO, YOU are the niche.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

It was the entire reason for the thread being started in the first place.

It was started cos you called the woman in the shop a fuckwit for calling out a white fascist cunt as gammon

Fuckin gammon, for crying out loud!

 

[mauvais]

Except it isn't a tangent. It's the very root of the argument!
If you feel that racism isn't, and can't be, racism, unless it's dispensed by white people (of power?), then, IMHO, YOU are the niche.

No, a niche based on the term being applied to people beyond typical kipper stereotypes, which IME it's not common currency for.

I'm not going to make an argument on it because it's bedtime and also I can't be fucking bothered, but in relation to what you described, racism requiring there to be structural power, that's long been a view on here shared by many, and not so easily dismissed.

 

[Spymaster]

It was started cos you called the woman in the shop a fuckwit for calling out a white fascist cunt as gammon

Once again, I called out a young Asian girl's hypocrisy in calling out a white man for racism with some racial abuse of her own. The term is a thing among Asian kids (and other kids of colour I expect) at the moment. It has slipped its moorings from the original usage and is now used as by some as a slur to refer to any white people. I don't think that's ok. Sorry.

 

[xenon]

Urban, where words have other (useless in scope) meanings...
IRL most people understand the word racist to mean holding prejudicial views about others or another, based on their race, ethnicity, or granted, more debatable, country of origin. The power dynamics of a given situation may give context to that racism but the absence of a recognisable power differencial doesn't magic away the racism itself, requiring the victim to choose some other descriptor to please bellends on the internet.

As for Gammon, I don't think it's racist in it's main use. A bit dodgey maybe. But in the context Spymaster has described it, is. This because it has nothing to do with the supposed attitudes of the target, just skin colour.

 

[8ball]

Once again, I called out a young Asian girl's hypocrisy in calling out a white man for racism with some racial abuse of her own. The term is a thing among Asian kids (and other kids of colour I expect) at the moment. It has slipped its moorings from the original usage and is now used as by some as a slur to refer to any white people.

Really? Gammon? I’d just laugh at a kid using that towards me.