French Presidential elections

[yield]

Know that Zizek isn't popular on here. Thought this was good.

Don’t believe the liberals – there is no real choice between Le Pen and Macron
Slavoj Zizek 03/05/17

Are we not allowed at least to raise the question: yes, Macron is pro-European – but what kind of Europe does he personify? The very Europe whose failure feeds Le Pen populism, the anonymous Europe in the service of neoliberalism. This is the crux of the affair: yes, Le Pen is a threat, but if we throw all our support behind Macron, do we not get caught into a kind of circle and fight the effect by way of supporting its cause?

 

[bimble]

So his advice;
1.Abstain.
then
2. "Think!" (About why there's no viable alternative )
3.

 

[Pickman's model]

So his advice;
1.Abstain.
then
2. "Think!" (About why there's no viable alternative )
3.

Why do you do this?

 

[bimble]

I think it's a silly posturing article with nothing to offer at all , just dangerous contrarianism .

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it's a silly posturing article with nothing to offer at all , just dangerous contrarianism .

And all the other times?

Why do you respond to things in ways which show you haven't engaged with them, be they articles or posts? It's not a new thing, you've been doing it for years.

 

[Dogsauce]

Who is 'they'? When did this hacking take place in Britain? Can you point to any evidence whatsoever?

No specific allegations (and I claim nothing equivalent to a 'hacking' incident as we had nothing like that during the ref), but why would they not try to influence events? Why would they not undermine a geo-political rival that they were engaged in a pissing contest with? It's not really stepping into paranoid conspiraloony land to accept this as a possibility. The 'West' would do the same. There were certainly 'bots' active on Twitter boosting certain views, as has been noted during the current election.

 

[Raheem]

There's that thing about Farage secretly visiting the Ecuadorian embassy. So, although there's nothing known to have happened, there's also not no reason whatsoever to suspect anything.

 

[redsquirrel]

So his advice;
1.Abstain.
then
2. "Think!" (About why there's no viable alternative )
3.

One or the other of them will form the next government though. That's the reality of this moment, so how can refusing to tick a box to stop Le Pen taking power next week be helpful to anyone apart from le Pen.

I'll be voting for the Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol Party again probably, if they stand again this time in Lambeth.

Lovely consistency here. Why are you helping UKIP/the Tories?

 

[J Ed]

No specific allegations (and I claim nothing equivalent to a 'hacking' incident as we had nothing like that during the ref), but why would they not try to influence events? Why would they not undermine a geo-political rival that they were engaged in a pissing contest with? It's not really stepping into paranoid conspiraloony land to accept this as a possibility. The 'West' would do the same. There were certainly 'bots' active on Twitter boosting certain views, as has been noted during the current election.

Given that groups and institutions from the Clinton campaign, to 4chan to GCHQ have been quite open about influencing online discourse this way you are going to have to do better than that.

 

[J Ed]

So I wonder, when elected will Macron follow through on his threat to 'sanction' Hungary and Poland?

 

[Raheem]

So I wonder, when elected will Macron follow through on his threat to 'sanction' Hungary and Poland?

Do you think he should or shouldn't?

 

[J Ed]

Do you think he should or shouldn't?

I don't have any opinion on what Macron 'should do', any more than I have any opinion on what Le Pen or May or Trump or Clinton should do. I have nothing in common with any of them either materially or ideologically.

 

[J Ed]

I would suggest though, that at a time when the legitimacy of the EU is in a very precarious position, that Macron following through on these threats is extremely unlikely. Anything that looks like sanctions for countries which fail to do X, Y or Z on refugees will immediately alienate four EU countries - Slovakia, Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary.

 

[Raheem]

I would suggest though, that at a time when the legitimacy of the EU is in a very precarious position, that Macron following through on these threats is extremely unlikely. Anything that looks like sanctions for countries which fail to do X, Y or Z on refugees will immediately alienate four EU countries - Slovakia, Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary.

It would probably risk alienating the governments of those countries, at least. But the Law and Justice party in Poland, for example, doesn't seem to have the public exactly foursquare behind it, judging from today's demonstrations and the way the opinion polls are going. I think he will do what he has said because he has said it and it will be a popular move in France.

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm not arguing, I'm looking for an answer, "voting to keep out the fascist" bollocks, it's voting to keep out the 'obvious fascist, while we keep on infiltrating our comfy, acceptable to the comfortable sheeplike population, brand of corporate fascism'

What does this actually mean?

The same "nose holders" that allowed TTT to succeed to the presidency? The ones who stayed at home rather than sully their consciences?
I destest Macron, and his ilk, but he's deeply preferable to LP, though, while I hope he wins, I hope it's close enough to wake up the establishment from their deep seated Neo liberal complacency, and start to take notice of what could happen if they don't start alleviating the pain of the WC.

You blamed abstainers for Trumps win and implied they would be responsible for Le Pen's win, moreover, you hope to see a Macron win. The logical conclusion of that is that people should vote to keep out the fascist.

 

[redsquirrel]

Know that Zizek isn't popular on here. Thought this was good.

Don’t believe the liberals – there is no real choice between Le Pen and Macron
Slavoj Zizek 03/05/17

That's actually one of the best things I've ever read by Zizek, far less pretentious, pompous crap and flowery language than usual and just a clear articulation of his stance.

 

[CRI]

Like how voting LD stopped the Tory gov in the UK? Or voting PSOE in Spain stopped the PP forming government? Or voting Green or Labour in Ireland stopped austerity governments? Or how voting SDP in Germany kept Merkel out?

jog on with this. Its just a 'white socialists don't care' thing from you, we're all out of date fossilised marxists who will happily game the system even though that means people must suffer. Seriously, do one with that. I've had it enough over brexit. Your short-termism defeats everyone. Your opposition to 'idealistic' radical choices defeats everyone. Leave it out. You'd rather kick it down the road than vote left, and fuck your sadface too. As if it aint the left (of all colours and creeds) these people come for first...

Wow, hope you get enough oxygen to breathe up there on your moral high ground.

 

[DotCommunist]

its ok you can share that air, sat as you are on the highest of horses

 

[editor]

I'm in France now. People are fucking angry but - just like Brexit - the people don't know where to turn.

 

[redsquirrel]

Wow, hope you get enough oxygen to breathe up there on your moral high ground.

It's a moral high ground to point out that your tactic has failed repeatedly over the last few years. Yes I suppose you would see it like that.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Largest French Newspaper Explains Why It Won't Cover The Macron Leaks | Zero Hedge

Too bad the American media wasn't as principled.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Largest French Newspaper Explains Why It Won't Cover The Macron Leaks | Zero Hedge

Too bad the American media wasn't as principled.

Can't see that backfiring at all.

 

[The Boy]

Largest French Newspaper Explains Why It Won't Cover The Macron Leaks | Zero Hedge

Too bad the American media wasn't as principled.

That and the fact that they'd be breaking the law. Which was the precise reason the files were leaked when they were.

 

[bimble]

Lovely consistency here. Why are you helping UKIP/the Tories?

I've explained several times why I think that's a totally false equivalence, and that my vote (in this safe labour seat) will make no difference at all.

This, by Yanis Varoufakis, i think makes total sense:
The Left Must Vote for Macron

 

[redsquirrel]

I've explained several times why I think that's a totally false equivalence, and that my vote (in this safe labour seat) will make no difference at all.

Neither would have Green votes in Nebraska, and a Macron victory is also highly likely so why complain when Mélenchon voters abstain?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[bimble]

Will the result be known tonight? Just to be honest about how irrational and paranoid i am about this, i have this feeling that she might well win, despite all the predictions.

 

[Raheem]

Will the result be known tonight? Just to be honest about how irrational and paranoid i am about this, i have this feeling that she might well win, despite all the predictions.

The French media will make it's call at around 7 pm our time, although counting will not have finished by then and it might not be clear in the event that it is close.

Positive news for those for whom defeat for Le Pen is important is that turnout seems to be down on last time so far, but probably not as much as you would expect if there was a serious amount of conscious abstention going on. Of course it still could be happening, but be being masked by high turnout elsewhere. But high turnout elsewhere would also probably work against Le Pen.

 

[bluescreen]

The French media will make it's call at around 7 pm our time, although counting will not have finished by then and it might not be clear in the event that it is close.

Positive news for those for whom defeat for Le Pen is important is that turnout seems to be down on last time so far, but probably not as much as you would expect if there was a serious amount of conscious abstention going on. Of course it still could be happening, but be being masked by high turnout elsewhere. But high turnout elsewhere would also probably work against Le Pen.

Could you unpack your last couple of sentences? Are you in France right now?

 

[CRI]

Will the result be known tonight? Just to be honest about how irrational and paranoid i am about this, i have this feeling that she might well win, despite all the predictions.

Not irrational. Not paranoid.

 

[Raheem]

Could you unpack your last couple of sentences? Are you in France right now?

There's been talk of an usually high level of abstention, perhaps millions of people, affecting the vote in Le Pen's favour. I'm not sure how much basis this had anyway, but the signs are that it isn't happening, because turnout so far is only a little lower than would be expected. Or it could be that it is happening, but it is not evident in the turnout because people are generally very motivated to vote in this election. If that's the case though, it would work against Le Pen, conventional wisdom would say, because most of her supporters are likely to vote in any scenario, and so a high turnout would mean diminishing returns for her.

No, I'm not in France.