French Presidential elections

[Idris2002]

The thing to remember about Melenchon's tactics in regard to the second round is that they have a wider strategic context - the context formed by the fact that the French Fifth Republic is dying, and a Sixth Republic is on its way down the pipe.

If you want a genuinely anti-fascist politics to be hegemonic in the France of the future, you're going to have to not only fight Le Pen, but also maintain your independence from the likes of Macron.

 

[Mr Moose]

Nonetheless millions of French people will abstain. All of them apparently mental according to Moose, md

I concern myself only with those who normally do vote and think they would rather risk Le Pen than sully themselves with a vote for Macron.

In those circumstances, were you able to, would you abstain?

 

[Raheem]

This bit is not true: "Anything advice about not voting for Le Pen only came days later" - the advice came on Tuesday.

His concession was pretty much spot on.

How is Tuesday compared to Sunday not days? You're being silly. And in any event, it's what he says immediately for the consumption of the news bulletins that matters most, not the backpeddling. If neutrality was spot on, why not just leave it at that? Surely he would have had no need to clarify anything.

 

[belboid]

How is Tuesday compared to Sunday not days? You're being silly. And in any event, it's what he says immediately for the consumption of the news bulletins that matters most, not the backpeddling.

There was zero back pedalling. And you claimed he said nothing for a week. Whereas he was very clear a day and a half later. Sorry that doesn't fit with your narrative, Hadley.

 

[Raheem]

There was zero back pedalling. And you claimed he said nothing for a week. Whereas he was very clear a day and a half later. Sorry that doesn't fit with your narrative, Hadley.

No, I said it took him about a week (I'll concede it was actually probably five days) to give a clear and direct instruction not to vote for Le Pen. Before that, he put out a YouTube video in which he tried to meet his critics half-way, saying that he would vote and, although he wasn't going to say who for, people who knew him would be able to guess. Still not the clear soundbite the situation called for.

Btw, this isn't liberal sniping. The pressure on him came from various quarters, but also from a large section of his supporters, notably from the Communists, which is why he was not able to stick to his line.

 

[Idris2002]

Very "anarkid", this one, and it will remind you of the good old days here on U75. But it's worth reading:

"Those who fear the election of Marine Le Pen must understand that the French police are already carrying out an effectively fascist program."

May Day 2017 in Paris: A Report from the Streets

France is a country where even the middle classes hate the police, don't forget.

 

[Pickman's model]

I concern myself only with those who normally do vote and think they would rather risk Le Pen than sully themselves with a vote for Macron.

In those circumstances, were you able to, would you abstain?

Whoever not? It's not like I've ever voted in a general election here.

 

[bimble]

The thing to remember about Melenchon's tactics in regard to the second round is that they have a wider strategic context - the context formed by the fact that the French Fifth Republic is dying, and a Sixth Republic is on its way down the pipe.

If you want a genuinely anti-fascist politics to be hegemonic in the France of the future, you're going to have to not only fight Le Pen, but also maintain your independence from the likes of Macron.

Right. So fight Le Pen, but don't do so by voting to keep her out. How exactly then?
Eg) the author of that piece you posted about May Day, it's unclear to me if they'll be abstaining because hey its already a fascist state.

 

[redsquirrel]

Have you read the thread. Back on page 10.

The question (for me) is can you stop fascism at the ballot box?

 

[Pickman's model]

Right. So fight Le Pen, but don't do so by voting to keep her out. How exactly then?
Eg) the author of that piece you posted about May Day, it's unclear to me if they'll be abstaining because hey its already a fascist state.

So every few years we have to go through the same frothing. Do you have any suggestions for the French, for things they could do between elections so they don't continue to have run-offs between shit and vomit?

 

[bimble]

I haven't read all of it admittedly. But as chilango says a couple of posts later there are no easy answers, it's surely a legitimate thing to discuss.

...what if that contributed to Fillon's defeat/Le Pen's victory?
If it is so important that Le Pen is beaten at the ballot box (about which I'm open minded) then surely you do everything you can to ensure this defeat?

 

[belboid]

No, I said it took him about a week (I'll concede it was actually probably five days) to give a clear and direct instruction not to vote for Le Pen. Before that, he put out a YouTube video in which he tried to meet his critics half-way, saying that he would vote and, although he wasn't going to say who for, people who knew him would be able to guess. Still not the clear soundbite the situation called for.

Btw, this isn't liberal sniping. The pressure on him came from various quarters, but also from a large section of his supporters, notably from the Communists, which is why he was not able to stick to his line.

Sound bites are for idiots. He does very well to avoid them.

 

[Idris2002]

Right. So fight Le Pen, but don't do so by voting to keep her out. How exactly then?
Eg) the author of that piece you posted about May Day, it's unclear to me if they'll be abstaining because hey its already a fascist state.

Le Pen is still outside the front door, but her accomplices are already inside the house. Which is not the same thing as saying that France is a fascist state, just that elements in that state are already quite happy to collude with her agenda. Remember Sarko saying that the FN was compatible with the Republic?

 

[redsquirrel]

I haven't read all of it admittedly. But as chilango says a couple of posts later there are no easy answers, it's surely a legitimate thing to discuss.

Yes, but maybe read the thread first (it's not that long) so that your familiar with the arguments.

But on the point, while I can't speak for Idris2002, for me the focus on 'stopping X' is part of the problem. Rather than asking 'how can the FN/whoever be stopped?' it's more useful to ask 'how can the power of labour be leveraged?' or 'how can we increase labour's power?'.

 

[chilango]

There's also a crucial difference between "stopping" and "delaying".

 

[bimble]

A lot of this is about reacting to immediate fear versus taking the long term view, of course. But will it be easier or harder to move towards where you hope to get to with Le Pen in power?

 

[Pickman's model]

A lot of this is about reacting to immediate fear versus taking the long term view, of course. But will it be easier or harder to move towards where you hope to get to with Le Pen in power?

Right. The same immediate fear as the last time and the time before that. In the long term, of course, we're all dead.

 

[Sue]

So every few years we have to go through the same frothing. Do you have any suggestions for the French, for things they could do between elections so they don't continue to have run-offs between shit and vomit?

Indeed. Le Pen Senior got 18% in the second round of the presidential election in 2002. Marine Le Pen's on course to get twice that this time round. Whatever the anti-FN people are doing/not doing, it doesn't exactly appear to be working.

 

[Raheem]

Sound bites are for idiots. He does very well to avoid them.

They're for politicians. More specifically, if you like. Mélenchon is actually good at them. I see you've given up arguing the substance though, so let's leave it there.

 

[Mr Moose]

Whoever not? It's not like I've ever voted in a general election here.

And we are back again to 'it's all the same'...

 

[Raheem]

Indeed. Le Pen Senior got 18% in the second round of the presidential election in 2002. Marine Le Pen's on course to get twice that this time round. Whatever the anti-FN people are doing/not doing, it doesn't exactly appear to be working.

Taking "anti-FN" at it's widest, one thing they've been doing is banalising the FN's politics by gently aping it in an attempt to win over its voters. The message that there's no real moral difference between the status quo and fascism is, while not precisely the same, just more banalisation, and it just serves to strengthen them.

 

[bimble]

And we are back again to 'it's all the same'...

That's the thing. It just seems decadent and frankly idiotic to me, as if things can't get worse, like much worse, particularly for people who are on the wrong side of the nationalst sentiments that Le Pen is stirring up.

 

[belboid]

They're for politicians. More specifically, if you like. Mélenchon is actually good at them. I see you've given up arguing the substance though, so let's leave it there.

You had no substance, just a deliberate misrepresentation of Melanchon's position.

 

[emanymton]

That's the thing. It just seems decadent and frankly idiotic to me, as if things can't get worse, like much worse, particularly for people who are on the wrong side of the nationalst sentiments that Le Pen is stirring up.

I feel similar about your position. All you are doing by putting the election above all other concerns is loading bullets in the gun the FN will turn on you.

 

[Raheem]

I feel similar about your position. All you are doing by putting the election above all other concerns is loading bullets in the gun the FN will turn on you.

Even if this is right (I don't think it's ridiculous, but it is a massive over-simplification) surely it just leads to the proposition that we need to accept the FN now or run the risk of possibly having to accept them in five year's time. Not a great choice to be faced with, but also not a difficult one to make, and nothing we didn't already know.

 

[belboid]

Why do we have to 'accept' anything?

 

[Raheem]

Why do we have to 'accept' anything?

I've sometimes wondered that too.

 

[Mr Moose]

I feel similar about your position. All you are doing by putting the election above all other concerns is loading bullets in the gun the FN will turn on you.

No one is putting it above all concerns. French people will continue agitate and organise and resist, but the task is surely harder, the risk to individuals greater, if the FN grasp power.

 

[bimble]

I feel similar about your position. All you are doing by putting the election above all other concerns is loading bullets in the gun the FN will turn on you.

Why do you say I'm putting the election above all other concerns?
I honestly don't get it.
Abstaining is not any kind of an answer to the problem. it neither delays nor prevents.

 

[chilango]

Why do you say I'm putting the election above all other concerns?
I honestly don't get it.
Abstaining is not any kind of an answer to the problem. it neither delays nor prevents.

Nobody is saying abstaining is the answer. They're saying the answer lies away from the choices presented at the ballot box.