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French Presidential elections

littlebabyjesus said:
I've probably misunderstood. Because I cannot for the life of me see 'too much common sense' for me in that post. I just see a bunch of statements that seem pretty obviously true. Of course the left is failing and of course people feel alienated by the system. I've felt alienated by the system all my adult life - there's some kind of assumption here that somehow certain posters live in some cosy bubble. I wish I did. I do not.

What I do see is complacency about the prospect of a fascist becoming French president. She'll be a weak leader? Will she? Is Trump a weak leader so far? I think this is dangerous complacency, and I was guilty of some of it towards Trump as well, I admit it. I don't intend to repeat that towards le Pen. And none of that is saying that you are urging people to vote for a Thatcherite cunt, or somehow endorsing him. That misses the point, as the very valid criticisms of Hillary Clinton missed the point if they then tilted towards saying either 'let's try Trump' or 'fuck it, let Trump in, they're all as rotten as each other'.

This is about keeping out le Pen. And I repeat that I think it is dangerous complacency to underestimate the consequences of a le Pen victory. 'Fillon is also racist'? Certainly. As was Thatcher. But there is a difference, and I think it is naive or disingenuous to pretend that there isn't.
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You can't compare Trump to Le Pen - Trump is not only president with serious executive clout, his party fractious as they maybe control both houses of the legislature, Le Pen will at best have 5 or 6 MPs out of hundreds. If she does deals with the centre right to get stuff through she will have to take on many of the people who voted for her - if she does then she may lose and will certainly discredit her own movement in the process.

None of this represents a turn to the FN but a look at the reality on the ground - vote for a vile racist smasher of the unions and the welfare state to stop a vile racist.

No thanks I'm not voting for a vile racist full stop
 
ska invita said:
Fair point - I didnt mean to out and out say you are an apologist, more make the point there's a very steep and slippery slope on this, and to me those arguments set that slope alarm bell ringing. CR on the other hand is a serial apologist.
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Oh great so didn't didn't mean to out and out say it, just imply I'm a bit of an apologist. Lovely. I suppose the IWCA are on that slippery slope too?

Have we really reached a point where unless you support 'vote X to keep out [hard-right populist party]' you're on the slippery slope to being an apologist for fascism. Hope not Hate eat your heart out.
 
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littlebabyjesus said:
I've probably misunderstood. Because I cannot for the life of me see 'too much common sense' for me in that post. I just see a bunch of statements that seem pretty obviously true. Of course the left is failing and of course people feel alienated by the system. I've felt alienated by the system all my adult life - there's some kind of assumption here that somehow certain posters live in some cosy bubble. I wish I did. I do not.

What I do see is complacency about the prospect of a fascist becoming French president. She'll be a weak leader? Will she? Is Trump a weak leader so far? I think this is dangerous complacency, and I was guilty of some of it towards Trump as well, I admit it. I don't intend to repeat that towards le Pen. And none of that is saying that you are urging people to vote for a Thatcherite cunt, or somehow endorsing him. That misses the point, as the very valid criticisms of Hillary Clinton missed the point if they then tilted towards saying either 'let's try Trump' or 'fuck it, let Trump in, they're all as rotten as each other'.

This is about keeping out le Pen. And I repeat that I think it is dangerous complacency to underestimate the consequences of a le Pen victory. 'Fillon is also racist'? Certainly. As was Thatcher. But there is a difference, and I think it is naive or disingenuous to pretend that there isn't.
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This is so commonsensical to me, I struggle to see how anybody could think otherwise.
 
Do we think the ongoing practical - rather than future theoretical - shambles of the Trump government will be a deterrent to would-be protest voters?
 
Jeff Robinson said:
This is so commonsensical to me, I struggle to see how anybody could think otherwise.
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Seriously? I am misremembering or didn't you used to (maybe still do) consider yourself an anarchist? All the criticisms of electoral politics made by anarchists/communists in the past and you can't understand why people might not support 'voting X to keep out Y' even if you don't agree with such a viewpoint?
 
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redsquirrel said:
Oh great so didn't didn't mean to out and out say it, just imply I'm a bit of an apologist. Lovely. I suppose the IWCA are on that slippery slope too?

Have we really reached a point where unless you support 'vote X to keep out [hard-right populist party]' you're on the slippery slope to being an apologist for fascism. Hope not Hate eat your heart out.
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what's the iwca saying, exactly, that's relevant to this? I'd be interested to read a well worded position.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
What I do see is complacency about the prospect of a fascist becoming French president. She'll be a weak leader? Will she? Is Trump a weak leader so far? I think this is dangerous complacency, and I was guilty of some of it towards Trump as well, I admit it. I don't intend to repeat that towards le Pen. And none of that is saying that you are urging people to vote for a Thatcherite cunt, or somehow endorsing him. That misses the point, as the very valid criticisms of Hillary Clinton missed the point if they then tilted towards saying either 'let's try Trump' or 'fuck it, let Trump in, they're all as rotten as each other'.
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...other motives are available - a revolutionist could actively want to get the overt fascist elected in some sort of Marcusian effort to rip the mask off the system
 
If you'd stop them in the streets or in the trenches, why would you not stop them at the ballot box?

I'm not talking about publicly backing the likes of Macron, Fillon or whoever, and ruining the credibility of a political platform.

But would anyone on here really not stop fascism at the ballot box because it would wound their sense of ideological purity?
 
where to said:
But would anyone on here really not stop fascism at the ballot box because it would wound their sense of ideological purity?
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Who is this to? I'm sorry but this is fucking pathetic no one's made such an argument. DT argued that they felt that a Fillon presidency was more dangerous than a Le Pen presidency, you might disagree with that argument but it's clearly not about ideological purity.

EDIT: Actually chilango's point below is even more the money.
 
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redsquirrel said:
Seriously? I am misremembering or didn't you used to (maybe still do) consider yourself an anarchist? All the criticisms of electoral politics made by anarchists/communists in the past and you can't understand why people might not support 'voting X to keep out Y' even if you don't agree with such a viewpoint?
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I am aware of the arguments. I don't understand their logic.
 
redsquirrel said:
And you (still) consider yourself an anarchist?
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I've never identified as an anarchist, though I note that not all anarchists agree on this matter. Chomsky, for example, advocates voting for the lessor of two evils, and that is the position I am in agreement with.
 
OK I must have misremembered. But I'm not arguing that all anarchists must reject voting or that an anarchist has to not vote or oppose voting. I'm arguing that it's fucking ridiculous for anyone who claims to be an anarchist to argue that they can't recognise the reasons why people don't vote. That while they might disagree with that reasoning, it doesn't make non-voters or, advocates of non-voting, or those who argue that the HnH line is counterproductive, apologists for fascism or have the same mindset as psychopathic terrorists.

It seems a pretty simple point to grasp to me, but considering the trouble some people are having with it maybe it really is out there.
 
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redsquirrel said:
OK I must have misremembered. But I've not arguing that all anarchists reject voting or that an anarchist has to not vote or oppose voting. I'm arguing that it's fucking ridiculous for anyone who claims to be an anarchist to argue that they can't recognise the reasons why people don't vote. That while they might disagree with that reasoning, it doesn't make non-voters or, advocates of non-voting, or those who argue that the HnH line is counterproductive, apologists for fascism or have the same mindset as psychopathic terrorists.

It seems a pretty simple point to grasp to me, but considering the trouble some people are having with it maybe it really is out there.
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To be clear, my position is not that non-voters are apologists for fascism, merely that not voting against fascist/far right etc candidates in circumstances were there is an outcome better than a fascist candidate being elected is profoundly misguided.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
In a narrow sense in certain narrow circumstances, yes. Le Pen in 2002 was stopped at the ballot box.
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Le Pen's Presidential bid was stopped. Was "fascism"?(or was the FN?).

An example I'm more familiar with would be Derek Beacon. Winning the BNP's first council seat back in the early/mid 90s. A campaign ensued afterwards to ensure that in the next elections he lost that seat. Which he did. Didn't stop the BNP though, did it?
 
chilango said:
Le Pen's Presidential bid was stopped. Was "fascism" (or was the FN?).

An example I'm more familiar with would be Derek Beacon. Winning the BNP's first council seat back in the early/mid 90s. A campaign ensued afterwards to ensure that in the next elections he lost that seat. Which he did. Didn't stop the BNP though, did it?
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A fascist was stopped from gaining real power. That's not nothing. Booting out BNP councillors is also not nothing.

Is voting against them enough on its own? No. Nobody here has claimed otherwise.
 
chilango said:
Le Pen's Presidential bid was stopped. Was "fascism"?(or was the FN?).

An example I'm more familiar with would be Derek Beacon. Winning the BNP's first council seat back in the early/mid 90s. A campaign ensued afterwards to ensure that in the next elections he lost that seat. Which he did. Didn't stop the BNP though, did it?
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When you have a position of governmental power you can do a lot with that to advance your politics - in this case fascism. See for example the FN in the four town elections they won.
So yes, it did stop the spread of the BNP that significant little bit, yes.
 
chilango said:
No, but if (and it is an "if" for me) the campaign which got these results at the same both weakened the left and strengthened the far-right, in the longer term it's a bit of a pyrrhic victory, no?
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well this is where i was asking redquirrel for some evidence - that in so doing it encourage people to vote for the far right somehow. I see no evidence for it.
 
chilango said:
No, but if (and it is an "if" for me) the campaign which got these results at the same both weakened the left and strengthened the far-right, in the longer term it's a bit of a pyrrhic victory, no?
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That really is a big if. How does that sit with the FN's successes at local level in France. They've built on those, and they've also shown what cunts they are wherever and whenever they have had control.
 
...the next question that springs to my mind is that if (again a big "if") people can (and should) vote for "whoever" to stop Le Pen - because it is that important - then should also campaign for, and build the vote (electoral machinery etc.) for this "whoever", in order to give them the best chance of beating Le Pen. It would seem logical to do so, but becomes somewhat different politically to individually "holding one's nose" and casting a ballot in secret.

There sure aren't any easy answers.
 
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