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French Presidential elections

People around the world have/could well be effected by votes in France and other European Countries, Brexit is being looked at very closely across Latin America as governments look to their own trading blocs and regional parliaments.

Without wanting to take things to far off topic, if the EU falls apart it will have ramifications in other parts of the world. Mercosur (South American trade bloc) Mercosur parliament and Bank of the South were looking to the EU and taking a lead from the EU in the direction they would proceed, as was SICA (the economic and political bloc of Central America), Central American parliament, Central American bank (which hasn't got a unified currency, but has been looking at it), they also have cross boarder Courts of justice, such as the Central American Court of Justice.
 
Id expect other europeans would look at May fawning over Trump and the mess that will be the negotiations over the next couple of years and balk. But thats if they can wait that long before having their own referendum. The UK is definitely a test case, but it'll take a while to put it to the test properly.
 
redsquirrel said:
For the last 20+ years the liberal-left strategy has been to insist on a vote to 'stop the BNP/UKIP/FN/whoever', often attacking those who stayed at home as if not allies of the hard-right at least dupes or not sufficiently concerned. Over the same time period the hard right has enjoyed significant electoral success, wagging your finger at people while telling them that if they don't vote they are helping to elect the hard-right doesn't seem to be a particularly effective strategy. In fact I'd argue it's precisely the type of thing to turn people off.
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There's a very simple solution to this. If the second round in France is AN Other vs NF, you can say that you hope people vote for AN Other (Tory-style cunt) to keep NF out. Or you can say, as was said upthread, that the correct socialist position is to abstain.

Also, France is a bit different in its electoral culture from the UK. The first round is where you get to vote for someone you might positively like. The second round is very often as much about which one you dislike least. French voters are well aware of this, and the French generally vote in far higher numbers than the UK - around 80 per cent last time.

Looking at 2002, you could argue that a degree of voter apathy in the first round was the cause of Le Pen sneaking through to the second - turnout 71 per cent. But that changed in the second round, which became something of a statement of solidarity against the FN. 80 per cent turnout and Le Pen won fewer than 1 million more votes in the second round than the first - an amazing rejection really.

In that sense, on past performance, the French generally don't need people telling them what to do. The vast majority are well aware of what to do.

I certainly personally make no bones about this. If it is a case of r/winger vs NF, and the NF ends up being trounced again due to socialists and others backing the r/winger, I will breathe a sigh of relief, and say well done. That was the best you could do by that point.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
There's a very simple solution to this. If the second round in France is AN Other vs NF, you can say that you hope people vote for AN Other (Tory-style cunt) to keep NF out. Or you can say, as was said upthread, that the correct socialist position is to abstain.
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Or you can say neither, recognise that parliamentary politics is a rigged game and not bother with it. The 'correct socialist position' stuff is crap but it's not as crap as labelling non-voting as reminiscent of the actions of Islamic terrorists.

littlebabyjesus said:
Looking at 2002, you could argue that a degree of voter apathy in the first round was the cause of Le Pen sneaking through to the second - turnout 71 per cent. But that changed in the second round, which became something of a statement of solidarity against the FN. 80 per cent turnout and Le Pen won fewer than 1 million more votes in the second round than the first - an amazing rejection really.
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And since then the FN have become more not less electorally successful, but nevermind I'm sure the strategy of calling non-voters dupes, BNP/FN supporters by proxy etc has nothing to do with that.
 
A bit late I return to the party -I was catching up with Fortitude.

RS has declared as an advocate of non voting as he rejects participation because its a rigged game (Trump keeps saying its rigged too tho no doubt for different reasons) whereas DT was advocating a tactical abstention with a view to promoting a fascist win because it would create a better chance of a fight with the workers being educated in the process.Non voting on principle is clearly different to a tactical abstention.But RS gets on his high horse.

I ramped up my objection to abstaining by comparing it to the islamic terrorist tactic of indiscriminate bombing of civilians to goad them into a realisation that they need to be more fundamental for their caliphate to succeed.Its the same mindset imo even if one is using bombs and one is not using votes.Both are searching for a vehicle to educate the alleged uneducated.Anyway there it is.
 
Can't you actually respond to what people have said
Old Spark said:
RS has declared as an advocate of non voting as he rejects participation because its a rigged game (Trump keeps saying its rigged too tho no doubt for different reasons)
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In which post do I advocate this position? I've not said anything on this thread about whether I think people should or should not vote. I've taken issue with the absurd position that not voting, or even advocating not voting, is the same mindset as Islamic terrorists.

On the wider point I've also argued that moronic comparisons like the one you've made calling non-voters BNP/UKIP/etc voters by proxy has actually been counterproductive and supported the rise of the populist hard-right.
 
Old Spark said:
A bit late I return to the party -I was catching up with Fortitude.

RS has declared as an advocate of non voting as he rejects participation because its a rigged game (Trump keeps saying its rigged too tho no doubt for different reasons) whereas DT was advocating a tactical abstention with a view to promoting a fascist win because it would create a better chance of a fight with the workers being educated in the process.Non voting on principle is clearly different to a tactical abstention.But RS gets on his high horse.

I ramped up my objection to abstaining by comparing it to the islamic terrorist tactic of indiscriminate bombing of civilians to goad them into a realisation that they need to be more fundamental for their caliphate to succeed.Its the same mindset imo even if one is using bombs and one is not using votes.Both are searching for a vehicle to educate the alleged uneducated.Anyway there it is.
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I'm in a different time zone things have moved on seriously here! Apprerently I'm calling for a fascist to be elected!

All I said was clear above for all to read - and RS and LBJ don't seem to have had any problems understanding what I said even if LBJ disagrees - while you are twisting it quite considerably and then comparing the twisted version of what I said to a campaign of violent bombing, torture and rape in the name of a debased variant of a religion.

I just don't know how to respond to that - so I'm going to focus on LBJ.

I am not always an advocate of abstentions and I do understand the French electoral system quite well. I would like many French workers who don't vote FN quite happily in the normal run of things vote for a trot or FdG or whoever in the first round then vote PS in the second as long as the candidate wasn't a cunt.

I would probably not have abstained in the case of Chirac Vs Le Pen pere as Chirac while a rightwing bastard was not really any different to Mitterand another rightwing bastard and Le Pen was an open nazi - the worker movement was not in direct danger from a Chirac government.

Times have changed I'd still vote in the first round for Melanchon probably - but there's no way I would vote for or campaign for someone promising a bonfire of workers rights and public services to stop someone who will prove if elected to be a very weak leader.

In my own constituency this year I will have the opportunity to vote against a viscous and nasty rightwing libertarian bastard but only by voting for a Tory bastard. I'm not voting for the Tory.

Anyway I'm not advocating for anything in France - just saying what I would do, and what I know TU friends in France will do and what I suspect is fairly representative
 
redsquirrel said:
Does Sarkozy get the nomination if he does stand down, or does it have to be re-run? God the BBC are rubbish.
The Guardian makes a different claim altogether.
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Given he was eliminated at the first round it would be unlikely.

Not sure whether they'd have another primary or just put Juppe up. Though I guess nothing to stop either running as an independent and hoping LR fall in line in the event they were to win.
 
redsquirrel said:
Can't you actually respond to what people have said

In which post do I advocate this position? I've not said anything on this thread about whether I think people should or should not vote. I've taken issue with the absurd position that not voting, or even advocating not voting, is the same mindset as Islamic terrorists.

On the wider point I've also argued that moronic comparisons like the one you've made calling non-voters BNP/UKIP/etc voters by proxy has actually been counterproductive and supported the rise of the populist hard-right.
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Good point-I wouldnt like to be likened to that bloke who runs ISIS either -wonder what DT thinks as I was really challenging his advocacy of tactical abstention if the second ballot is Fillon and Le Pen.

Tbh I was unaware of your view about non voting as I have only come on here recently.So if you like you could state your position in the context of Fillon and Le pen and I promise to give it serious consideration.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
There's a very simple solution to this. If the second round in France is AN Other vs NF, you can say that you hope people vote for AN Other (Tory-style cunt) to keep NF out. Or you can say, as was said upthread, that the correct socialist position is to abstain.

Also, France is a bit different in its electoral culture from the UK. The first round is where you get to vote for someone you might positively like. The second round is very often as much about which one you dislike least. French voters are well aware of this, and the French generally vote in far higher numbers than the UK - around 80 per cent last time.

Looking at 2002, you could argue that a degree of voter apathy in the first round was the cause of Le Pen sneaking through to the second - turnout 71 per cent. But that changed in the second round, which became something of a statement of solidarity against the FN. 80 per cent turnout and Le Pen won fewer than 1 million more votes in the second round than the first - an amazing rejection really.

In that sense, on past performance, the French generally don't need people telling them what to do. The vast majority are well aware of what to do.

I certainly personally make no bones about this. If it is a case of r/winger vs NF, and the NF ends up being trounced again due to socialists and others backing the r/winger, I will breathe a sigh of relief, and say well done. That was the best you could do by that point.
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Except it's not 2002 any more , a long time ago . I think it would be a big mistake to use that scenario as a template for today's circumstances . Marine le pen isn't as badly afflicted by the extreme fascist and even personal ugliness personified by her father that justified voting for Chiraq . she kicked her da out of the party . Image wise she's made them a lot more palatable for many French . they're not as scary to many people as they were back then . They don't cause the same revulsion . Similarly the socio economic state of play is very different and the EU has never been more unpopular .

The way I look at it left wingers are going to be faced with a serious challenge whether it's her or Fillon in power . Either scenario requires the left to have credibility among the working class if they are to have any relevance at all . backing Fillon in today's circumstances...10 % unemployment, austerity , serious disillusionment with the entire system could prove fatal . Once Fillon goes to town on the workers and the poor the lefts support for him will rebound seriously badly . Theyll be totally discreditted and the FN will use that to their full advantage . There'll be literally nobody for the working class to turn to as a vehicle of protest only the FN . the left will have burnt their boats is how I see it .

Yes the FN get stopped this time around but then what ? The forces that empowered them wont have changed one bit . The left will be made..successfully..to carry the can for Fillons war on the working class . They'll be totally discredited and despised by Fillons victims. They'll be seen as just another cog in the wheel of the forces who oppress the workers . It'll be piss easy for the FN to play it like that and emerge as the uncontested champions of the downtrodden , heaping scorn upon the left. It'll be a case of winning a battle but losing the war . if you don't have people's hearts and minds forget about it .

Next time round you'll just be faced with the same scenario and by then nobody will be listening .
 
Dom Traynor said:
I'm in a different time zone things have moved on seriously here! Apprerently I'm calling for a fascist to be elected!

All I said was clear above for all to read - and RS and LBJ don't seem to have had any problems understanding what I said even if LBJ disagrees - while you are twisting it quite considerably and then comparing the twisted version of what I said to a campaign of violent bombing, torture and rape in the name of a debased variant of a religion.

I just don't know how to respond to that - so I'm going to focus on LBJ.

I am not always an advocate of abstentions and I do understand the French electoral system quite well. I would like many French workers who don't vote FN quite happily in the normal run of things vote for a trot or FdG or whoever in the first round then vote PS in the second as long as the candidate wasn't a cunt.

I would probably not have abstained in the case of Chirac Vs Le Pen pere as Chirac while a rightwing bastard was not really any different to Mitterand another rightwing bastard and Le Pen was an open nazi - the worker movement was not in direct danger from a Chirac government.

Times have changed I'd still vote in the first round for Melanchon probably - but there's no way I would vote for or campaign for someone promising a bonfire of workers rights and public services to stop someone who will prove if elected to be a very weak leader.

In my own constituency this year I will have the opportunity to vote against a viscous and nasty rightwing libertarian bastard but only by voting for a Tory bastard. I'm not voting for the Tory.

Anyway I'm not advocating for anything in France - just saying what I would do, and what I know TU friends in France will do and what I suspect is fairly representative
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Exactly . Back then it was a simple choice between 2 centralist conservative types and a frothing nazi . It was a simple and obvious tactical decision . It's nowhere near as simple now . Marine le pen can don the lefts economic clothes, in a fashion . her anti eu, anti austerity, anti elite rhetoric resonates . And she's up against a free market extremist who's...quite proudly... going to cause economic and social devastation among the working class. Who'll really destroy people .
It's a totally different ball game . The left are going to lose either way. The choice is to lose and destroy ones credibility or to lose and retain that credibility for tomorrows fight .
 
1%er said:
People around the world have/could well be effected by votes in France and other European Countries, Brexit is being looked at very closely across Latin America as governments look to their own trading blocs and regional parliaments.

Without wanting to take things to far off topic, if the EU falls apart it will have ramifications in other parts of the world. Mercosur (South American trade bloc) Mercosur parliament and Bank of the South were looking to the EU and taking a lead from the EU in the direction they would proceed, as was SICA (the economic and political bloc of Central America), Central American parliament, Central American bank (which hasn't got a unified currency, but has been looking at it), they also have cross boarder Courts of justice, such as the Central American Court of Justice.
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Surely Mercosur, ALBA and SICA etc are made up of countries which have far more in common culturally and economically than the member states of the EU.
 
Casually Red said:
Exactly . Back then it was a simple choice between 2 centralist conservative types and a frothing nazi . It was a simple and obvious tactical decision . It's nowhere near as simple now . Marine le pen can don the lefts economic clothes, in a fashion . her anti eu, anti austerity, anti elite rhetoric resonates . And she's up against a free market extremist who's...quite proudly... going to cause economic and social devastation among the working class. Who'll really destroy people .
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what effect do you think le pen will have on the working class? will she not really destroy people?
 
ska invita said:
what effect do you think le pen will have on the working class? will she not really destroy people?
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Le pen is a populist, she isn't going after people's jobs . Shell be happy to use public sector jobs an d benefits as bribes to stay in power. The economic damage shell do to the working class will be through the usual combination of incompetence and corruption , not free market zealotry . The damage she can do can be countered by a left that retains its credibility . It can be fought against . If the left back Fillon however they're finished in the credibility stakes. Le pen assumes their role as the voice of the working class .
 
Meanwhile,
<snip>Emmanuel Macron was the clear beneficiary of the Fillon debacle. Then, that same day, two conservative MPs brandished a newspaper serialisation of a rather staid book on the Finance ministry, stating that Macron used up 80 per cent of the Ministry’s entire expenses budget in eight months to wine and dine the contacts, supporters, and Facebook friends of his fledgling mini-Party, En Marche, prior to declaring himself.

Macron howled that this was untrue, claiming that the economy Minister was surely expected to travel and entertain. But even though some of the revelations have an element of comedy – such as Macron attending two separate dinners a night, both paid for by public funds – the perception that he’s living high on the hog, again, is unacceptable to public opinion.

You’d think this would play directly into Marine Le Pen’s hands. It probably will. But not as much as if she and her acolytes had raised a fuss. Which they haven’t, on account of being under a number of investigations related to their own parliamentary assistants and general hiring practices, in Paris and especially in Brussels where they are MEPs.
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https://capx.co/why-french-politics-has-never-been-so-unpredictable/
 
redsquirrel said:
For the last 20+ years the liberal-left strategy has been to insist on a vote to 'stop the BNP/UKIP/FN/whoever', often attacking those who stayed at home as if not allies of the hard-right at least dupes or not sufficiently concerned. Over the same time period the hard right has enjoyed significant electoral success, wagging your finger at people while telling them that if they don't vote they are helping to elect the hard-right doesn't seem to be a particularly effective strategy. In fact I'd argue it's precisely the type of thing to turn people off.
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Id like to hear that argument fleshed out with some evidence. Obviously patronising attitudes are never helpful in any situation, but on the core subject of what's right and wrong?

I understand the key problem here, but im hearing what sounds like apologism going on that jars with me:

  • -encouraging people to vote against the far-right is dismissed emotively as "finger-wagging" {redsquirrel}
  • -people telling other people the importance of keeping out the far-right is suggested as actually just encouraging them to vote for the far right, as if adult voters are petulant five-year olds who will do the opposite, and vote for a racist/fascist party just to get back at those who encourage them not too {redsquirrel}
  • -its not so bad if Le Pen gets in over a rampant conservative as she would be "a very weak leader" by comparison {Dom Traynor}
  • -"Marine le pen isn't as badly afflicted by the extreme fascist and even personal ugliness" {Casually Red} - to clarify, to me this is a matter of presentation, and not substance. They are equally ugly and extreme for all practical purposes.

Casually Red said:
Le pen is a populist, she isn't going after people's jobs . Shell be happy to use public sector jobs an d benefits as bribes to stay in power. The economic damage shell do to the working class will be through the usual combination of incompetence and corruption , not free market zealotry . The damage she can do can be countered by a left that retains its credibility . It can be fought against . If the left back Fillon however they're finished in the credibility stakes. Le pen assumes their role as the voice of the working class .
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The term populism is a sop - the FN is not a populist party, its a racist and neo-fascist one.
I've been reading about what the FN has done in the towns where it has won local elections and got control of the council (Vitrolles, Marignane, Orange and Toulon). A tiny taste of power, but to me its reinforces they are the worst choice by far.

And how come the FN can be fought against in power but the French conservatives cant?
To me its seems easier to fight against and overturn changes to the economic structure, particularly in france with a strong workers movement, than it is to put back into pandoras box the evil and poisonous sentiments harboured by the likes of the FN, or risk letting them have a chance of legitimacy.



For me its a thick red line. This may sound like internet hyperbole but its true, I would much rather lose my job than have a neo-fascist party run the country i live in, simple as that. And I'd vote that way given the choice. It would be a hardship but I'd sleep easier at night.
If the left want to maintain credibility then we should stand against (neo)fascist parties at every single turn. Anything that can be perceived as chasing on the coat-tails of the far-right seems the ultimate sell out to me, with disastrous consequences.

Looking at why Spain hasn't had a resurgent far-right despite having all the problems that the far-right feed off (unemployment/levels of migration/poverty), and on a scale more severe than most northern european countries, it would seem that a key reason they are somewhat protected is a strong immune system against neo-fascism, post-Franco. The red line is firmly in their collective conscience. And that red line needs defending everywhere, across Europe and beyond.

A big part of this is the nature of the french voting system. Im in favour of proportional representation, and voted against AV/AV+ and would have opposed this french system too were it on offer, as it has the effect of giving legitimacy to candidates you may despise. AS LBJ says, French voters are well aware of this, and understand its nature. Despite the flaw of the system I would still vote against the FN, and would encourage others to do so.

*I would appreciate a respectful tone in response to this - im not picking a fight - its a critical subject, and its important to talk it out. I wont be online much this weekend now btw
 
J Ed said:
Surely Mercosur, ALBA and SICA etc are made up of countries which have far more in common culturally and economically than the member states of the EU.
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Economic divergence is as great in Latin America as it is across Europe between countries, if not greater in many cases. While there are cultural similarity's there are also massive differences. What is a surprise to many people is that Portuguese is the most spoken language in South America, closely followed by Spanish, although Spanish is the most widely spoken if one looks at the whole of Latin America.

I be very happy to discuss the massive differences having lived in Latin America for over 3 decades, but I'm not sure that a thread about the French presidential election is the right place. I only made my post above to show how an election in one country can/could have an effect halfway across the world.
 
ska invita said:
Id like to hear that argument fleshed out with some evidence. Obviously patronising attitudes are never helpful in any situation, but on the core subject of what's right and wrong?

I understand the key problem here, but im hearing what sounds like apologism going on that jars with me:

  • -encouraging people to vote against the far-right is dismissed emotively as "finger-wagging" {redsquirrel}
  • -people telling other people the importance of keeping out the far-right is suggested as actually just encouraging them to vote for the far right, as if adult voters are petulant five-year olds who will do the opposite, and vote for a racist/fascist party just to get back at those who encourage them not too {redsquirrel}
  • -its not so bad if Le Pen gets in over a rampant conservative as she would be "a very weak leader" by comparison {Dom Traynor}
  • -"Marine le pen isn't as badly afflicted by the extreme fascist and even personal ugliness" {Casually Red} - to clarify, to me this is a matter of presentation, and not substance. They are equally ugly and extreme for all practical purposes.


The term populism is a sop - the FN is not a populist party, its a racist and neo-fascist one.
I've been reading about what the FN has done in the towns where it has won local elections and got control of the council (Vitrolles, Marignane, Orange and Toulon). A tiny taste of power, but to me its reinforces they are the worst choice by far.

And how come the FN can be fought against in power but the French conservatives cant?
To me its seems easier to fight against and overturn changes to the economic structure, particularly in france with a strong workers movement, than it is to put back into pandoras box the evil and poisonous sentiments harboured by the likes of the FN, or risk letting them have a chance of legitimacy.



For me its a thick red line. This may sound like internet hyperbole but its true, I would much rather lose my job than have a neo-fascist party run the country i live in, simple as that. And I'd vote that way given the choice. It would be a hardship but I'd sleep easier at night.
If the left want to maintain credibility then we should stand against (neo)fascist parties at every single turn. Anything that can be perceived as chasing on the coat-tails of the far-right seems the ultimate sell out to me, with disastrous consequences.

Looking at why Spain hasn't had a resurgent far-right despite having all the problems that the far-right feed off (unemployment/levels of migration/poverty), and on a scale more severe than most northern european countries, it would seem that a key reason they are somewhat protected is a strong immune system against neo-fascism, post-Franco. The red line is firmly in their collective conscience. And that red line needs defending everywhere, across Europe and beyond.

A big part of this is the nature of the french voting system. Im in favour of proportional representation, and voted against AV/AV+ and would have opposed this french system too were it on offer, as it has the effect of giving legitimacy to candidates you may despise. AS LBJ says, French voters are well aware of this, and understand its nature. Despite the flaw of the system I would still vote against the FN, and would encourage others to do so.

*I would appreciate a respectful tone in response to this - im not picking a fight - its a critical subject, and its important to talk it out. I wont be online much this weekend now btw
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The term populism isn't a sop...a sop to fucking who by the way ? . It's a perfectly accurate description of le pens tactics . It's her route to power . it's why she kicked her nazi cunt dad out of the party and doesn't run about with bone heads . It's why her party now transcends the fascist constituency and does well in former leftist/ communist heartlands . She promotes populist policies and stances/rhetoric while keeping the fascist agenda either at arms length or under the bed . And she's very successful at doing so .

I've made my point clear time and again . A point you've ignored completely merely to quote me selectively . Even if you win this battle against the FN by urging workers to vote Fillon you lose the wider struggle . The left are badly discredited due to a variety of factors , that's precisely why le pen and co are hoovering up their natural constituency . Why le pen is seen as the vehicle of protest and not leftists..who are trailing in her electoral dust despite austerity and massive unemployment. To back Fillon will be the end of any credibility the left has . Shell exploit that to the hilt ,Fillons rampage will be delivered in a bow by the left. The left will be successfully portrayed as a cog of the establishment and the butt of workers resentment. There's no getting away from that . People will be looking for scapegoats and the left will be at the front of the queue . And she may well even be replaced by something worse next time around . Her daughter maybe , who's an out and out fascist .

If leftists urge a boycott/abstention on principle and with convincing arguments she might still be beat but without compromising the left . Your principle is admirable but the vast majority of workers aren't activists . They're ordinary people who have to put food on the table for their families . And keep roofs over their heads . They may share many of your sympathies but they simply aren't activists . They're not going to vote for their own decimation and may well simply ignore any call to vote Fillon anyway, meaning further irrelevance .
You could well end up with a situation were the left urge a vote for Fillon , most workers ignore them but Fillon wins anyway . The disenchantment with the left could become irreparable . It's atrocious enough as it is .

Eta

And who'll be the chief beneficiary of that ? Who stands to gain the most from the working classes disenchantment with leftist politicians ?
 
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ska invita said:
And how come the FN can be fought against in power but the French conservatives cant?
To me its seems easier to fight against and overturn changes to the economic structure, particularly in france with a strong workers movement, than it is to put back into pandoras box the evil and poisonous sentiments harboured by the likes of the FN, or risk letting them have a chance of legitimacy.
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How can you, with any credibility whatsoever, fight against a free market agenda that you've explicitly urged people to vote for in the first place ? You lose your credibility wholesale . And the only person to profit from that is Le Pen . That's who'll take on board the credibility you jettisoned and become even more entrenched as the voice of protest . She won't be compromised, you will . And at the end of that electoral cycle there you'll be all over again with even less credibility making the same fucking argument all over again to a much smaller jaded audience .
 
Casually Red said:
Le pen is a populist, she isn't going after people's jobs . Shell be happy to use public sector jobs an d benefits as bribes to stay in power. The economic damage shell do to the working class will be through the usual combination of incompetence and corruption , not free market zealotry . The damage she can do can be countered by a left that retains its credibility . It can be fought against . If the left back Fillon however they're finished in the credibility stakes. Le pen assumes their role as the voice of the working class .
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She will be going after Muslims. We know that cos she's said so. Says so repeatedly. Has compared the supposed Islamisation of France to the Nazi occupation. She's toned down the rhetoric from her father's naked racism but it's all still there.
 
I've changed my position on this over the years. I used to think fuck voting, fuck legitimising the system with my participation. But now, when there are concrete situations in front of you, such as the possibility of a racist being elected, I think a bit differently. Some things are more important than such principles. If you're French and le pen got in after you didn't vote, how could you look your Muslim neighbour in the face?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
You haven't. you've urged people to reject fascism.
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You have regardless of excuses . And the prime political beneficiaries from that decision will be the FN . People increasingly aren't rejecting them, they're rejecting the left . That's happening for a reason . There's a cause and effect involved here .
Ask yourself why they and not the left are surging ahead in the current climate of austerity and EU disillusionment ? What's likely to happen to that trajectory if the left urge a vote for the likes of Fillon ? Will disenchantment with the left rise or fall afterwards ? You can't expect to urge people to vote for him and not be held responsible for what he does next . When people say " politicians are all the same " they genuinely mean it . That just reinforces that view .

If this is what's happening with Muslim voters in regards to Le Pen what on earth do you thinks going on with the non Muslim French ?

http://www.politico.eu/article/mari...im-islam-supporters-national-front-banlieues/

'I’m Arab, a Muslim, and I vote Marine Le Pen' - France 24

How Marine Le Pen is winning over the Muslim vote | Coffee House
 
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littlebabyjesus said:
I've changed my position on this over the years. I used to think fuck voting, fuck legitimising the system with my participation. But now, when there are concrete situations in front of you, such as the possibility of a racist being elected, I think a bit differently. Some things are more important than such principles. If you're French and le pen got in after you didn't vote, how could you look your Muslim neighbour in the face?
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Fillons a racist and has used those racist credentials to go after Le Pens vote . While she's toned that down to go after the left and even Muslim vote .

What if your Muslim neighbour lost his/her job in Fillons " complete rupture " of the social contract ? He'd call you a cunt to your face . Well maybe not but definitely behind your back .

And what if your Muslim neighbour voted Le Pen ?

In an atmosphere of intense disillusionment with the EU elites right across the board to be seen siding with them in any manner serves only to become identified with the entire " blob " that's responsible for people's predicament in the first place . You rule yourself out as ever being the solution . And the FN capitalise on that even more .
 
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From that 2015 Spectator article CR cites above:
Boutih knows better than most why more and more Muslims are turning to the Front National. In an interview last month with Le Figaro, he explained that in February this year he was commissioned by the Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, to examine the radicalisation of young French Muslims. The report he presented, GénérationRadicale, proved unpalatable to his fellow Socialists, who dismissed its findings at a meeting at the party’s headquarters in July. Summoned to address the party’s inner circle, Boutih subsequently told Le Figaro. ‘I produced a speech on the emergence of the violence, I’m therefore going against the tide [of Socialist opinion]. I became an embarrassment. Everything was done for me to disappear from political life.’

The failure of both Francois Hollande’s and Nicolas Sarkozy’s governments to tackle Islamic extremism in France has left many Muslims feeling abandoned by the traditional politicians.
Click to expand...
 
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