Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[Manter]

This has triggered a thought about how often male bad (or just odd) behaviour elicits a response of ‘maybe he’s on the spectrum’*. I’ve sat in so many conversations with women who are being treated badly where there is a ‘maybe it’s just how his mind works’ ‘I’ve always wondered whether he was on the spectrum’ or ‘do you think that these days he’d be diagnosed’

And I think it lets men off the hook for shitty behaviour, because NNT doesn’t = being foul to women, violent, scary, threatening, dangerous, rude, selfish, unfeeling, thoughtless etc. It just doesn’t!

*i know that isn’t how a spectrum works and we are *all* on the spectrum. But I’m talking about common not correct usage

 

[Steel Icarus]

This has triggered a thought about how often male bad (or just odd) behaviour elicits a response of ‘maybe he’s on the spectrum’*. I’ve sat in so many conversations with women who are being treated badly where there is a ‘maybe it’s just how his mind works’ ‘I’ve always wondered whether he was on the spectrum’ or ‘do you think that these days he’d be diagnosed’

And I think it lets men off the hook for shitty behaviour, because NNT doesn’t = being foul to women, violent, scary, threatening, dangerous, rude, selfish, unfeeling, thoughtless etc. It just doesn’t!

*i know that isn’t how a spectrum works and we are *all* on the spectrum. But I’m talking about common not correct usage

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I should point out we don't excuse his behaviour when he is being aggressive or throwing stuff, but if we can minimise the risk of it getting to that stage, surely that's an acceptable compromise?

 

[Manter]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I should point out we don't excuse his behaviour when he is being aggressive or throwing stuff, but if we can minimise the risk of it getting to that stage, surely that's an acceptable compromise?

Wouldn’t be an acceptable compromise for me. Your daughter needs to learn to be kind and not be mean to him because he has ticks, obviously, but she has to learn to be free and bold and own her own voice, opinions and emotions, not pussyfoot round a man who’s a primed grenade.

Not least because it internalises that explosions are her fault in some way- she laughed, or cried, or spoke, or didn’t. His behaviour is her fault because if she’d tried harder he wouldn’t have exploded.

And because he’s going to meet a world that doesn’t dance round him.

 

[Pickman's model]

This has triggered a thought about how often male bad (or just odd) behaviour elicits a response of ‘maybe he’s on the spectrum’*. I’ve sat in so many conversations with women who are being treated badly where there is a ‘maybe it’s just how his mind works’ ‘I’ve always wondered whether he was on the spectrum’ or ‘do you think that these days he’d be diagnosed’

And I think it lets men off the hook for shitty behaviour, because NNT doesn’t = being foul to women, violent, scary, threatening, dangerous, rude, selfish, unfeeling, thoughtless etc. It just doesn’t!

*i know that isn’t how a spectrum works and we are *all* on the spectrum. But I’m talking about common not correct usage

It can also medicalise everything which isn't, in the beholder's mind, "normal" and used to be quite widely used here to belittle

 

[spanglechick]

Wouldn’t be an acceptable compromise for me. Your daughter needs to learn to be kind and not be mean to him because he has ticks, obviously, but she has to learn to be free and bold and own her own voice, opinions and emotions, not pussyfoot round a man who’s a primed grenade.

Not least because it internalises that explosions are her fault in some way- she laughed, or cried, or spoke, or didn’t. His behaviour is her fault because if she’d tried harder he wouldn’t have exploded.

And because he’s going to meet a world that doesn’t dance round him.

I would place the same level of responsibility on her as if he found it hard to regulate his behaviour because he was three*. So, no deliberate winding him up, but if he gets into a rage about something she couldn’t have foreseen, or that is part of the daily give and take in a family, that’s not her fault.

*which is not to say NNT people are like three year olds. At all. But the quick to anger thing seemed like a fair parallel. Apologies if it’s not.


I’m often introduced hued by the differences between boys with ASD and girls, who by the time of puberty seem to have more success in moderating and controlling their responses (because of the socialised expectations on girls to people please). And many ASD adult men have learned these strategies too (to enable them to hold down jobs and have independence). Obviously some NNT are not able to manage in this way, but I’d have thought in adolescence there should be a family emphasis on having responsibility for developing his own coping strategies.

 

[Manter]

I would place the same level of responsibility on her as if he found it hard to regulate his behaviour because he was three*. So, no deliberate winding him up, but if he gets into a rage about something she couldn’t have foreseen, or that is part of the daily give and take in a family, that’s not her fault.

*which is not to say NNT people are like three year olds. At all. But the quick to anger thing seemed like a fair parallel. Apologies if it’s not.


I’m often introduced hued by the differences between boys with ASD and girls, who by the time of puberty seem to have more success in moderating and controlling their responses (because of the socialised expectations on girls to people please). And many ASD adult men have learned these strategies too (to enable them to hold down jobs and have independence). Obviously some NNT are not able to manage in this way, but I’d have thought in adolescence there should be a family emphasis on having responsibility for developing his own coping strategies.

Not deliberately winding him up is basic be kind/don’t be a dick stuff and very different to modifying yourself around him to avoid risk of situations escalating to violence. The latter sets my teeth on edge when girls are learning that about boys

 

[bellaozzydog]

Thank you for a very interesting and thought provoking thread

 

[Shirl]

I've not read all this thread, just the first page. Will read it all once I get the chance.
I've never heard of man-whispering. Which is odd because I realise I've been doing it with my partner for 31years.
I may post more when I've read more.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I realised I was doing it yesterday when my husband came home in a bad mood and a bit drunk.

 

[Manter]

I've not read all this thread, just the first page. Will read it all once I get the chance.
I've never heard of man-whispering. Which is odd because I realise I've been doing it with my partner for 31years.
I may post more when I've read more.

I think more and more of us are naming stuff that we have been doing for a while as it allows us to own, mock, and challenge some of this shit. (Eg patriarchy chicken)

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I'd never heard of patriarchy chicken before, so looked it up. Really interesting, and so ingrained!
How to play Patriarchy Chicken: why I refuse to move out of the way for men

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'd never heard of patriarchy chicken before, so looked it up. Really interesting, and so ingrained!
How to play Patriarchy Chicken: why I refuse to move out of the way for men

Interesting. I hadn't really noticed (but I don't commute on trains often) but will pay more attention now.

I have made a point of taking up space since I was younger and became aware of how much space men took for themselves and how women seemed to want to make them selves small. I'm big and heavy and I spread my legs when sitting in that way that men do. I like taking up space.

 

[keithy]

Had an argument with a man who expected me to shut up complaining about his wife shoving her bag into my feet as it wouldn't fit properly under my seat on the plane. He was trying to put me in my place and I didn't let him, instead choosing to make him look like a dick head by standing my ground and making a bit of a belittling remark to him.

I could tell he didn't expect this response.

Men think they already know the narrative, and it usually involves women just letting them have their own way etc. Well they can fuck off with that.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Man whispering...

I needed to meet my neighbours for a street party con-flab on the same evening as a choir social so booked a table at the pub at the end of my road from 6:30...Street party meeting 6:30-7:00pm choir social after....Long table booked for 12...

I arrive just before 6:30...neighbours from the street shortly after...we get stuck in...this, tick, that, tick. anything else who will do it? other things, yes I will do it.. streamlined meeting because we have met 4 times already and mostly things are done.

The long table we are at is marked reserved...

A man sits down at the end table...4 chairs away from our meeting is taking up because the size of the table reflects the choir arrivees at 7pm... No problem at this point.

We are deep in 'check, has this been done?'. 'look here are the flyers, who is going to door knock and spam the cars' mode and this blokes starts up...

'What's all this about then?'
We all stop talking and look at him.
'Oh a street party, you need to speak to my wife.'
Is she here? Why do we need to speak to her?
'No, but...When we do it it is like x, y, z.'
Okay mate. Thanks for the suggestions.
'Yeah but, I am well known around here and our street party is the same day as yours so you need to do x, y, z...'
Thanks mate, most of that is sorted...no problem, enjoy your day, great we are all doing this kind of thing etc

We focus on each other, he repeatedly tries to interrupt again. My neighbours leave as my choir peeps arrive...we fill up the table that we have booked...he continues to sit there at the end of the table forcing people to squeeze around him to gain access to the back of the table...I watch my choir mates look embarrassed as they have to squeeze themselves between a wall and a random guy who is merely squatting our reserved table. He laughs and says it's okay, fine, no problem.

WTF...no it is not fine.

I get out of my seat and move up the table...then separate the table he is on from the rest so that anyone else arriving does not have to squeeze past nor touch this twit to sit down at the table...he is incensed by this..

'What are you doing?'
'I have been coming to this pub for 25 years and have never been excluded from anything!'

I point out that my friends should not have to squeeze past him to be able to sit down at the table that we have reserved and he is actually taking space up on. I ask him not to take it personally.

'Well I do..because...'

I didn't hear the reason why...I just lost my rag and told him to 'grow the fuck up.' I moved around to my chair and basically myself and the choir friends talked about what a fucking idiot he was until he moved and started chewing someone's ear off at at the bar.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

I'd never heard of patriarchy chicken before, so looked it up. Really interesting, and so ingrained!
How to play Patriarchy Chicken: why I refuse to move out of the way for men

I read this a little while ago ...I think manter might have shared it on Facebook....

I often go through Waterloo on my commute so I've tried this game there....I discovered that if you look up and not at men, they move out of the way...Its made me wonder if I've been doing a lot of scanning and by doing so, tacitly accepting that I'll move out the way...when I don't scan they don't know I'm going to move so they move

 

[Manter]

I read this a little while ago ...I think manter might have shared it on Facebook....

I often go through Waterloo on my commute so I've tried this game there....I discovered that if you look up and not at men, they move out of the way...Its made me wonder if I've been doing a lot of scanning and by doing so, tacitly accepting that I'll move out the way...when I don't scan they don't know I'm going to move so they move

I’ve had a couple of shoulder barges in Paddington station because they assume i’ll Move and then when I don’t their reactions are slowed by surprise. Which if you weren’t as tall as me might make you think twice about doing it again... which I guess is how this stuff gets ingrained

 

[Poot]

A man actually tripped over and landed on me in Morrisons a couple of weeks ago. I don't think I will try this, tempting as it sounds. Self preservation and safety first! (I'm not even that short - probably 5'2" but wow these days the invisibility cloak is really working its magic!)

 

[Steel Icarus]

People walking into you just sounds like London to me

 

[killer b]

I'd never heard of patriarchy chicken before, so looked it up. Really interesting, and so ingrained!
How to play Patriarchy Chicken: why I refuse to move out of the way for men

I read this article a bit ago and have been paying more attention to how I move through public spaces since - I was surprised to discover my default is to barge on through. Totally unconscious to it previously...

 

[Poot]

People walking into you just sounds like London to me

Not even - it was in my home town and not during my half term trip to London (which confirmed that I would be a small stain on the pavement having been trampled by phone zombies if I wasn't particularly nippy!)

 

[Winot]

Man whispering...

I needed to meet my neighbours for a street party con-flab on the same evening as a choir social so booked a table at the pub at the end of my road from 6:30...Street party meeting 6:30-7:00pm choir social after....Long table booked for 12...

I arrive just before 6:30...neighbours from the street shortly after...we get stuck in...this, tick, that, tick. anything else who will do it? other things, yes I will do it.. streamlined meeting because we have met 4 times already and mostly things are done.

The long table we are at is marked reserved...

A man sits dowe at the end table...4 chairs away from our meeting is taking up because the size of the table reflects the choir arrivees at 7pm... No problem at this point.

We are deep in 'check, has this been done?'. 'look here are the flyers, who is going to door knock and spam the cars' mode and this blokes starts up...

'What's all this about then?'
We all stop talking and look at him.
'Oh a street party, you need to speak to my wife.'
Is she here? Why do we need to speak to her?
'No, but...When we do it it is like x, y, z.'
Okay mate. Thanks for the suggestions.
Yeah but, I am well known around here and our street party is the same day as yours so you need to do x, y, z...'
Thanks mate, most of that is sorted...no problem, enjoy your day, great we are all doing this kind of thing etc

We focus on each other, he repeatedly tries to interrupt again. My neighbours leave as my choir peeps arrive...we fill up the table that we have booked...he continues to sit there at the end of the table forcing people to squeeze around him to gain access to the back of the table...I watch my choir mates look embarrassed as they have to squeeze themselves between a wall and a random guy who is merely squatting our reserved table. He laughs and says it's okay, fine, no problem.

WTF...no it is not fine.

I get out of my seat and move up the table...then separate the table he is on to the rest so that anyone else arriving does not have to squeeze past nor touch this twit to it down at the table...he is incensed by this..

'What are you doing?'
'I have been coming to this pub for 25 years and have never been excluded from anything!'

I point out that my friends should not have to squeeze past him to be able to sit down at the table that we have reserved and he is actually taking space up on. I ask him not to take it personally.

'Well I do..because...'

I didn't hear the reason why...I just lost my rag and told him to 'grow the fuck up.' I moved around to my chair and basically myself and the choir friends talked about what a fucking idiot he was until he moved and started chewing someone's ear off at at the bar.

Christ what a dick. I felt awkward just reading that. Do men like that have no awareness of how they come over, or do they just not care? And it’s always a man isn’t it. You’d never get a woman doing that.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Not even - it was in my home town and not during my half term trip to London (which confirmed that I would be a small stain on the pavement having been trampled by phone zombies if I wasn't particularly nippy!)

Again, I'm sure being the size I am makes people be "miraculously" not in my way if I'm walking along but I so often worry about it because I'm clumsy and awkward with it.

I very rarely go to crowded places - I live in a small town and only venture into a bigger one for work, which at the moment isn't busy times of day.

I had an incident a few years back that upset me, I couldn't shake it off for weeks. I was in London to see a band at the O2 and was waiting for a train after at Canada Dock, very busy and very late, maybe the last train. As it pulled in I noticed a young mum with pram next to me so said "Here, let me help you with that", nipped on ahead of her to pick up the far end of the pram...and she wheeled it on. I didn't realize train doors are level with the platform.

So some big fella rumbled at me that perhaps I shouldn't have pushed in if I wanted to help. I froze, thinking anything I do is gonna make things worse, but the mum was looking at me like shit, it seemed every passenger around me was also. So I kept my head down until I got off.

And yeah, I'm typing this and have only just thought how she must have felt to have yet another bloke take the piss and push ahead of her. Even though it was a mistake. And no, I'm not claiming #notallpushersin either

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Christ what a dick. I felt awkward just reading that. Do men like that have no awareness of how they come over, or do they just not care? And it’s always a man isn’t it. You’d never get a woman doing that.

There is definitely a breed of Pub Bloke who think they're entitled to get in on anything happening in that pub, and can be particularly pushy with women. There was one guy at my local (he's stopped drinking now, a good thing for everyone) who would constantly ask questions to random visitors even if they were having a conversation, and use that as an excuse to talk about himself. Women on their own or in pairs would definitely get more of this. Once I saw him talking to a women who was there with her husband - they started off politely replying but obviously got increasingly tired of his nonsense, yet he didn't get the hint. Eventually when he carried on asking stuff and the woman's husband had gone to the loo she turned and said sharply "I don't think that's any of your business actually" and he was completely shocked. He did apologise and stop though, at least with them.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Christ what a dick. I felt awkward just reading that. Do men like that have no awareness of how they come over, or do they just not care? And it’s always a man isn’t it. You’d never get a woman doing that.

It was really bloody annoying. I would have been embarrassed for him if I wasn't so shocked that he expected the women from my choir to squeeze themselves between him and the wall chuckling to himself each time, telling them not to worry, it is okay, he's not bothered etc as if they were in danger of inconveniencing him! He wasn't the usual bar-fly half cut already type either. Just a poncy, self-important, entitled twat. I fully expect to bump into him again too at some point. I will never give that type of man an inch. Fuck that.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

This has triggered a thought about how often male bad (or just odd) behaviour elicits a response of ‘maybe he’s on the spectrum’*. I’ve sat in so many conversations with women who are being treated badly where there is a ‘maybe it’s just how his mind works’ ‘I’ve always wondered whether he was on the spectrum’ or ‘do you think that these days he’d be diagnosed’

And I think it lets men off the hook for shitty behaviour, because NNT doesn’t = being foul to women, violent, scary, threatening, dangerous, rude, selfish, unfeeling, thoughtless etc. It just doesn’t!

*i know that isn’t how a spectrum works and we are *all* on the spectrum. But I’m talking about common not correct usage

A couple of answers here

First off an interesting article that made me rethink about the spectrum-rather than everyone being on it, it's an idea of the constellation of manifestations of autism "It's a Spectrum" Doesn't Mean What You Think

Second, there are some things that may never be understood by a couple on either side of the neuro typical/neuro diverse ...there are going to be ways of being in the world that may be hard for each partner to accept or understand ...I think I've been out with two people that might be NNT ....we had very different needs and ways of conducting communication ...I couldnt change my need and they couldn't change theirs

 

[wtfftw]

Again, I'm sure being the size I am makes people be "miraculously" not in my way if I'm walking along but I so often worry about it because I'm clumsy and awkward with it.

I very rarely go to crowded places - I live in a small town and only venture into a bigger one for work, which at the moment isn't busy times of day.

I had an incident a few years back that upset me, I couldn't shake it off for weeks. I was in London to see a band at the O2 and was waiting for a train after at Canada Dock, very busy and very late, maybe the last train. As it pulled in I noticed a young mum with pram next to me so said "Here, let me help you with that", nipped on ahead of her to pick up the far end of the pram...and she wheeled it on. I didn't realize train doors are level with the platform.

So some big fella rumbled at me that perhaps I shouldn't have pushed in if I wanted to help. I froze, thinking anything I do is gonna make things worse, but the mum was looking at me like shit, it seemed every passenger around me was also. So I kept my head down until I got off.

And yeah, I'm typing this and have only just thought how she must have felt to have yet another bloke take the piss and push ahead of her. Even though it was a mistake. And no, I'm not claiming #notallpushersin either

Just to take your first paragraph really. Interestingly I've found as I get older and fatter people move out of my way less (so big doesn't equal others moving). I'm not sure if I'm less visible with age or permitted less public space as fat punishment. Or just some less attractive woman alignment of shit. I've always pushed back on barrelling men. I've got firm shoulders and a distant stare.

Side note on helping with a pram. Get an affirmative to an offer before proceeding. The amount of times I've been helped an actually they've not understood the precarious balance happening and it's quite scary if someone just grabs your child bag without checking.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Just to take your first paragraph really. Interestingly I've found as I get older and fatter people move out of my way less (so big doesn't equal others moving). I'm not sure if I'm less visible with age or permitted less public space as fat punishment. Or just some less attractive woman alignment of shit. I've always pushed back on barrelling men. I've got firm shoulders and a distant stare.

Side note on helping with a pram. Get an affirmative to an offer before proceeding. The amount of times I've been helped an actually they've not understood the precarious balance happening and it's quite scary if someone just grabs your child bag without checking.

No, there's obviously something else isn't there. Big man = potential threat, perhaps, for women, potential dominant male for shorter men.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Dp

 

[Clair De Lune]

I have emotional labour on my mind this morning. My house is a mess and it occurred to me that as I have an adult male living with me right now (a friend, a very decent and kind man I may add) that it wouldn't be unreasonable for me to ask him to join in with the cleaning today- I mean he walks on the floors, uses the cooker, toilet, shower, sink, work tops etc etc. But even though as stated, he is a thoroughly decent guy I feel a sense of trepidation about raising it with him. Will I be seen as bossy? will I make him feel attacked, criticised or guilty when it occurs to him that he doesn't just do this stuff without asking. I feel tired before I've even spoken to him about it as I've already given it such a lot of thought I've already contextualised and understood that the reason he probably does not see these things as his responsibility is that a woman has come along and done it for him previously. His dishes have magically disappeared, his clothes washed, his spills cleared, his bin emptied, his mess tidied away, the toilet cleaned after him, the toilet roll replaced, the sink swilled etc etc etfuckingcetera.

It reminded me of this wonderful thread which I so wish every man was forced willing to commit the emotional labour to read (oh the ironing)
But of course I just started reading it again instead and found this gem again- "
To quote the late great Douglas Adams: “An SEP [Somebody Else’s Problem field] is something we can’t see,
or don’t see, or our brain doesn’t let us see, because we think that it’s somebody else’s problem.... The brain
just edits it out, it’s like a blind spot. If you look at it directly you won’t see it unless you know precisely what
it is. Your only hope is to catch it by surprise out of the corner of your eye... it relies on people’s natural
disposition not to see anything they don’t want to, weren’t expecting, or can’t explain.”

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Patriarchy Chicken: was strolling through the park with a woman friend, having a chat and pausing to enjoy stuff. Large bloke with two dogs walked straight toward us, directly into us, without pausing. On a wide path. His two dogs went to either side of us and this bloke walked straight through. My mate stepped to the side. I stood still, just stopped walking, looked straight ahead and made an open handed wtf? gesture. As he marched past us I turned to looked at him, mainly because I was kinda flabbergasted at his brazen bollockery, and found that he was staring hard at us. I continued to look at him and he shouted “What’s your problem, eh?” To which I called “You just walked straight over us!” and then of course I got the “Get a life, fuck off”s and the threatening pause and turn back towards us, with his dogs also turning to face us. Because of the dogs I immediately disengaged and retreated from the whole thing.

On the tube the other day and a young bloke sat beside me and spread his skinny legs out so far I thought he must be having a laugh with a mate or something. I started to shift my legs out of his way then decided not to even though his leg was now resting against mine, because I was getting off at the next stop. Had I been staying on longer I would have said something to him. As I got up, I deliberately didn’t adjust or change my own behaviour to accommodate his stupidly sprawling legs, and actually bumped against him. So of course he was all like “Huh? What?” and did the open handed wtf gesture at me. So I paused, stood directly in front of him - which meant that I was now standing between his extended legs - and said while waving at his thighs and crotch “This is manspreading”. I guess he felt suddenly vulnerable because now he can’t close his stupid legs and suddenly I’m the one in a position of power. As I left I saw him looking around for support, but in fact there were more women than men in that section, and as I got off the train two of them swiftly made the “Are you okay?” signals that women pass to each other, and I returned the “Yes thanks I’m fine” signals to them.