Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[SheilaNaGig]

Clair De Lune

 

[ice-is-forming]

Patriarchy Chicken: was strolling through the park with a woman friend, having a chat and pausing to enjoy stuff. Large bloke with two dogs walked straight toward us, directly into us, without pausing. On a wide path. His two dogs went to either side of us and this bloke walked straight through. My mate stepped to the side. I stood still, just stopped walking, looked straight ahead and made an open handed wtf? gesture. As he marched past us I turned to looked at him, mainly because I was kinda flabbergasted at his brazen bollockery, and found that he was staring hard at us. I continued to look at him and he shouted “What’s your problem, eh?” To which I called “You just walked straight over us!” and then of course I got the “Get a life, fuck off”s and the threatening pause and turn back towards us, with his dogs also turning to face us. Because of the dogs I immediately disengaged and retreated from the whole thing.

On the tube the other day and a young bloke sat beside me and spread his skinny legs out so far I thought he must be having a laugh with a mate or something. I started to shift my legs out of his way then decided not to even though his leg was now resting against mine, because I was getting off at the next stop. Had I been staying on longer I would have said something to him. As I got up, I deliberately didn’t adjust or change my own behaviour to accommodate his stupidly sprawling legs, and actually bumped against him. So of course he was all like “Huh? What?” and did the open handed wtf gesture at me. So I paused, stood directly in front of him - which meant that I was now standing between his extended legs - and said while waving at his thighs and crotch “This is manspreading”. I guess he felt suddenly vulnerable because now he can’t close his stupid legs and suddenly I’m the one in a position of power. As I left I saw him looking around for support, but in fact there were more women than men in that section, and as I got off the train two of them swiftly made the “Are you okay?” signals that women pass to each other, and I returned the “Yes thanks I’m fine” signals to them.

You are my hero

 

[Pickman's model]

Patriarchy Chicken: was strolling through the park with a woman friend, having a chat and pausing to enjoy stuff. Large bloke with two dogs walked straight toward us, directly into us, without pausing. On a wide path. His two dogs went to either side of us and this bloke walked straight through. My mate stepped to the side. I stood still, just stopped walking, looked straight ahead and made an open handed wtf? gesture. As he marched past us I turned to looked at him, mainly because I was kinda flabbergasted at his brazen bollockery, and found that he was staring hard at us. I continued to look at him and he shouted “What’s your problem, eh?” To which I called “You just walked straight over us!” and then of course I got the “Get a life, fuck off”s and the threatening pause and turn back towards us, with his dogs also turning to face us. Because of the dogs I immediately disengaged and retreated from the whole thing.

On the tube the other day and a young bloke sat beside me and spread his skinny legs out so far I thought he must be having a laugh with a mate or something. I started to shift my legs out of his way then decided not to even though his leg was now resting against mine, because I was getting off at the next stop. Had I been staying on longer I would have said something to him. As I got up, I deliberately didn’t adjust or change my own behaviour to accommodate his stupidly sprawling legs, and actually bumped against him. So of course he was all like “Huh? What?” and did the open handed wtf gesture at me. So I paused, stood directly in front of him - which meant that I was now standing between his extended legs - and said while waving at his thighs and crotch “This is manspreading”. I guess he felt suddenly vulnerable because now he can’t close his stupid legs and suddenly I’m the one in a position of power. As I left I saw him looking around for support, but in fact there were more women than men in that section, and as I got off the train two of them swiftly made the “Are you okay?” signals that women pass to each other, and I returned the “Yes thanks I’m fine” signals to them.

It always strikes me with manspreading that the greater the display the less there is to see

 

[Clair De Lune]

Clair De Lune

Scarily accurate

 

[Clair De Lune]

Scarily accurate

The other day I said to him 'babe, would you mind putting the oven dishes back inside the oven after you're done using it please?' and he looked at me sorta blankly, blinking like a confused child. He said 'oh I do, don't I?' and I laughed and said 'well no, that's why I'm saying it' and again the blank look. So I had to explain that the reason he might not realise that he's not doing it, is that when they are left out, they are in my way, so I clear them away. I could tell that he still didn't believe me.

 

[Steel Icarus]

It always strikes me with manspreading that the greater the display the less there is to see

That's the sort of thing patriarchy makes men say

 

[Clair De Lune]

That's the sort of thing patriarchy makes men say

Yes. Might be a good one to bring up on the other thread- how male cock size gets brought up a lot in relation to how dominant they behave.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's the sort of thing patriarchy makes men say

It's much of a piece with the auld axiom that the people who talk loudest about something have the least experience or knowledge of it

 

[RubyToogood]

The other day I said to him 'babe, would you mind putting the oven dishes back inside the oven after you're done using it please?' and he looked at me sorta blankly, blinking like a confused child. He said 'oh I do, don't I?' and I laughed and said 'well no, that's why I'm saying it' and again the blank look. So I had to explain that the reason he might not realise that he's not doing it, is that when they are left out, they are in my way, so I clear them away. I could tell that he still didn't believe me.

The following negotiation with the best of my exes will always be engraved on my memory. It went roughly as follows.

Me: "Why do I always make dinner?"
Him: "It's because we're always at yours."
Me: "Yes but if I go to yours you never offer food."
Him: "Oh. I suppose I could make dinner."
Me: "How about tomorrow?"

The next day.
Him: "What do you want me to cook?"
Me: "I don't know. How about spaghetti with tomato sauce? That's quite easy."
Him: "How do you want me to chop this onion?"

Etc etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was being flippant, but slightly less flippantly, even if you manage to meet someone who has kicked over some of the worst bits of the patriarchy, you are still living in a world sodden with it, so you get all that negative judgement

Ann's parents - both of them - were very much into negative judgement if she showed aptitude for anything considered "masculine", like being able to solder, or strip and rebuild her bike, all through her life. People try to claim it's a generational thing, but it isn't in my experience, it's patriarchy and the sexism and gender roles it feeds.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If some women treat ALL MEN (omg) as a threat because of some men, that's something men need to deal with isn't it? Get your house in order.

The sad and pathetic thing is, that every time in my lifetime, that men have come together to try and break through the bullshit, they get sidetracked into women-blaming, and men's rights activism "Iron John" caveman crap.
Why? Because we seem pathologically unable - as a sex, and sometimes at an individual level - to take responsibility for our actions, preferring to shift the blame and scapegoat someone "weaker" than us.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Why, though?

I mean, yeah the patriarchy and all that.

But why the patriarchy?

I mean, yeah, I get that it’s a huge self service gargantuan embedded self perpetuating edifice. But why? What made it? And why is it so resilient?

I mean I know the answer to that is nice again “Because the patriarchy...”

Ad infinitum....

But...

 

[Steel Icarus]

Why, though?

I mean, yeah the patriarchy and all that.

But why the patriarchy?

I mean, yeah, I get that it’s a huge self service gargantuan embedded self perpetuating edifice. But why? What made it? And why is it so resilient?

I mean I know the answer to that is nice again “Because the patriarchy...”

Ad infinitum....

But...

I'm currently reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari who addresses and also gives convincing arguments against three theories regarding the existence of the patriarchy: men being stronger physically; men with more competitive genes being more successful at finding mates; and men being simply more aggressive.

He doesn't have an answer for "why patriarchy?".

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I'm currently reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari who addresses and also gives convincing arguments against three theories regarding the existence of the patriarchy: men being stronger physically; men with more competitive genes being more successful at finding mates; and men being simply more aggressive.

He doesn't have an answer for "why patriarchy?".

In my teens and twenties I was like a terrier with the question, asking older women and (more rarely) men, reading books, endless discussions with mates, even asking strangers on trains with whom I’d fallen into conversation. I phrased it in a dozen different ways but it comes down to a sense of real bewilderment about a basic question.

How and why did this happen?

It feels to me that we can’t truly take it apart unless we have some idea about how and why we set it up in the first place.

Was it just an incrementally accumulative process? Was it the agrarian revolution and the consequence of owning the land? Is it because men are scared of our power to produce new life? Is it innate? And when did women agree? Did we go along with it from the start?

But at root, just why and how.

 

[Steel Icarus]

It's unlikely to have happened by accident given its prevalence all over the place in societies that didn't come into contact with one another.

To flip this question around...if it's "always been", what's been different about the last hundred or even fifty years that advances towards at least a nominal equality have been made, or is it illusory that there weren't many challenges to the patriarchal system before the industrial revolution/the two wars?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Why, though?

I mean, yeah the patriarchy and all that.

But why the patriarchy?

I mean, yeah, I get that it’s a huge self service gargantuan embedded self perpetuating edifice. But why? What made it? And why is it so resilient?

I mean I know the answer to that is nice again “Because the patriarchy...”

Ad infinitum....

But...

The thing is that there doesn't have to be a good reason. It can just be something that happened which is not the end product of history or any of that crap.

There's a massive amount of intellectual effort put in to justify every single principle of society as the only logical thing that could have happened, the pinnacle of human social evolution and so on, from monarchy to neoliberalism, with associated distortions of history. You'd think from what we get taught that societies move from less to more hierarchical systems as a natural result of them increasing in size and complexity, the whole idea of "progressing" from hunter gatherers to agriculture, but it turns out that that is bollocks not just from a theoretical perspective but from a historical one - there have been large and complex societies which weren't set up anything like certain people claim they would have needed to have been.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I’m honestly fucking amazed at how backwards a lot of the men on this site are. Seriously. Wtaf.

I really don't understand the sense of entitlement, of "lordship" over women, that some blokes have. It's like they're immune to analysing their own actions. Bluntly, it's sociopathic. I can be as big an arsehole as the next bloke, but I've never hassled a woman for a date, or for her attention, and I stopped making stupid comments about periods and PMT when I was in my teens.
That said, I need to be more proactive in calling out arseholes who do act like entitled shitbags.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Most men don’t deny shit, they just don’t understand it, think it doesn’t apply to them, or secretly think it’s unfair. The evidence is on this thread.

Most of us don't want to own our behaviour. If we did, it'd be a good step toward setting some things aright.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I really don't understand the sense of entitlement, of "lordship" over women, that some blokes have. It's like they're immune to analysing their own actions. Bluntly, it's sociopathic. I can be as big an arsehole as the next bloke, but I've never hassled a woman for a date, or for her attention, and I stopped making stupid comments about periods and PMT when I was in my teens.
That said, I need to be more proactive in calling out arseholes who do act like entitled shitbags.

Unfortunately, and maybe this is better for the male experiences of patriarchy thread, but I _can_ understand and empathise with it. There are some prejudices that I've basically never understood, like antisemitism which I didn't even know existed until I heard about it, but this isn't one of them. I can feel how things can just flip over into active hatred and also how it's very resilient - the sense of bitterness and unfairness combined with objectification. Sometimes I think that if it weren't for some random factors I could be one of the shitty internet misogynists that we see all the time, though I'd like to think I have some level of basic decency that would stop that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Like if this were the 1800s I'd be the one put in the asylum for not conforming

Sadly, that was still happening into the 1970s.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why, though?

I mean, yeah the patriarchy and all that.

But why the patriarchy?

I mean, yeah, I get that it’s a huge self service gargantuan embedded self perpetuating edifice. But why? What made it? And why is it so resilient?

I mean I know the answer to that is nice again “Because the patriarchy...”

Ad infinitum....

But...

I think that any explanation needs to account for many different factors: Everything from acquisitiveness, to hierarchism, to capitalism, to standard "winner"/"loser" power relations, and loads more besides.
Maybe it's easier to answer "why is it self-perpetuating?!, to which a quick answer would be "because it's still the simplest form of exploitation, given existing dynamics between the sexes, both in the home and the workplace". I'm not aware of any polity where "sexual equality" actually means sexual equality, and until it does, asymmetric power relations between the sexes will continue.

Yeah, I know, bit of a circular argument.

 

[Manter]

Unfortunately, and maybe this is better for the male experiences of patriarchy thread, but I _can_ understand and empathise with it. There are some prejudices that I've basically never understood, like antisemitism which I didn't even know existed until I heard about it, but this isn't one of them. I can feel how things can just flip over into active hatred and also how it's very resilient - the sense of bitterness and unfairness combined with objectification. Sometimes I think that if it weren't for some random factors I could be one of the shitty internet misogynists that we see all the time, though I'd like to think I have some level of basic decency that would stop that.

Liked because you admitted it. Iyswim. I think all humans have light and dark in them and you can choose what to feed- but you have to constantly feed it. It’s so easy to just.... not..... and let society shape you. Be that racism, sexism, violence, whatever

 

[Manter]

I read this a little while ago ...I think manter might have shared it on Facebook....

I often go through Waterloo on my commute so I've tried this game there....I discovered that if you look up and not at men, they move out of the way...Its made me wonder if I've been doing a lot of scanning and by doing so, tacitly accepting that I'll move out the way...when I don't scan they don't know I'm going to move so they move

Patriarchy chicken update; I don’t do it at 10pm when it’s dark and I am walking home alone. I wouldn’t provoke a man however mildly where there aren’t people and cameras and lights....

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Yesterday I had to take my car to the mechanic. I knew from the check engine light code (and the leaking oil) what the problem was. I even printed off the sheet showing what the code said and handed it to the mechanic. When he called me later in the day to tell me what he had determined. He explained in great detail what the problem was--exactly what I had told him the problem was earlier in the morning. He went on the explain how he had read the code, and also explained this in great detail. Clearly he hadn't listened to a word I'd said earlier in the day when I told him what the problem was. But, instead of pointing this out, I shut my little woman mouth and practically congratulated him on his great diagnostic skills. I can't tell if it was reflex or just practicality. In any case, its just easier to let him treat me like I haven't a brain in my head, than it is to argue with him about it.

 

[no-no]

I never have to tread carefully around the women i my life, no I can't think of a dingle example where I've had to put things just so in order to avoid confrontation.


I don't understand why anyone feels the need to talk about this in terms of gender, ime men and women are just as likely to need this kind of treatment.

 

[no-no]

Yesterday I had to take my car to the mechanic. I knew from the check engine light code (and the leaking oil) what the problem was. I even printed off the sheet showing what the code said and handed it to the mechanic. When he called me later in the day to tell me what he had determined. He explained in great detail what the problem was--exactly what I had told him the problem was earlier in the morning. He went on the explain how he had read the code, and also explained this in great detail. Clearly he hadn't listened to a word I'd said earlier in the day when I told him what the problem was. But, instead of pointing this out, I shut my little woman mouth and practically congratulated him on his great diagnostic skills. I can't tell if it was reflex or just practicality. In any case, its just easier to let him treat me like I haven't a brain in my head, than it is to argue with him about it.

When you work in repairs you tend not to listen too much to the customer because they often get it wrong, you still have to carry out the diagnostic checks or you might miss something. The gender of the customer isn't important, if anything it's usually the men who think they're the expert and already know what the problem is.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I never have to tread carefully around the women i my life, no I can't think of a dingle example where I've had to put things just so in order to avoid confrontation.


I don't understand why anyone feels the need to talk about this in terms of gender, ime men and women are just as likely to need this kind of treatment.

We already did this bit at the beginning of the thread.

 

[no-no]

We already did this bit at the beginning of the thread.

Good, I'm not the only one with some sense of perspective then

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Good, I'm not the only one with some sense of perspective then

You're not the only one to miss the point

 

[no-no]

The point involves ignoring the fact both genders are capable of being arseholes?