Oula
Voice of a Goddess Giant
I'm so sorry.
Feminism and violence again women
- Thread starter friendofdorothy
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Deliverance
trashpony
Hag
I’m not sure why this post has been challenged for trying to ‘reframe’ the discussion.
This is absolutely the difference between MVAW and MVAM.
Men are most at risk of violence from men they don’t know, women are most at risk from men they do. The most dangerous man in any woman’s life is the one she lives with.
And it is something that crosses all class and race boundaries. There are millions of men who wouldn’t dream of having a fight in the pub or have never got into a row at work who are violent towards their female partners. Millions of them. Some of them make very sure to make sure the bruises don’t show. Don’t hit the face.
Marital rape was only made illegal in the U.K. in 2003. It’s still legal in many countries. When did marital rape become a crime? | The Week UK
Many men still believe they own the woman they are in a relationship with, that they should be ‘head of the house’, their word goes and any dissent must be punished, if not with violence but with coercive control tactics.
The roots of MVAW are in misogyny and I would argue they’re profoundly different to those of MVAM.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Think I've said on here before that he did work at the home for autistic kids my mum and sister both worked in for a bit and he gave them both the creeps. You'd look up and see him peering over the edge of the roof having obviously been watching you for a bit.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Yes, but there is also an ever pervasive threat for women from men we don’t know, whether that’s the man who pesters us at a party or pub, the man who follows us down the street etc.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
And while the greatest threat of violence to men may come from strangers, once you're over 25-30 or so it markedly decreases - almost all the violence I've faced in the last 20 years has come from the police, rather than from random strangers on the street. I understand this is not the experience of women (the decrease after being 25-30)
trashpony
Hag
That’s also true!
It's always difficult to raise it here, links between experiencing violence, especially in childhood and becoming violent later on.
In terms of the kinds of violence that ends up with referrals to CAMHS, there are boys who lash out because they struggle with emotional regulation, and frustration, they might have a developmental delay of some kind that needs assessing. There are very high numbers of children who have witnessed DV ( I don't know stats). And there are those who have experienced the most terrible abuse, torture, and sometimes these boys are sadistic and take pleasure in their hate from an early age. This is CAMHS though, it's a snapshot of a subsection of children, but men were children, they're not born men.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Always. The coercive control creates the environment for the physical abuse to be possible. Nobody is smacked about on their first date.
Yes. I put it in less certain language only because it's not my area of expertise. But yes, always.
I think there is a decrease with age for women isn't there? Females at most risk of rape are adolescent girls, worldwide.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh but I was under the impression we were focussing on the UK and previous discussion of the subject here suggested to me that the abrupt decrease in risk for men in the UK as they move away from adolescence wasn't mirrored in women's experience.
bellaozzydog
rolling turds in glitter
I’m sure that exact point has been raised previously on Urban.
The “normalisation” of male violence isn’t normal. WRT to male on male violence the majority of men don’t see themselves as violent and would shy away from male on male violence
Does this sense of “inadequacy” in capacity for actual male on male violence lead to men who question their own masculine physicality and mindset in a world full off cage fighters, boxers film and video violence and general drunk fighting men and lead to directing their frustration and inadequacy on to easier, more accessible less physical targets, women in their life/women they come across in the street/pub/club
We (myself and peers) were brought up to see a man who hit a women (a boy who hit a girl) as a coward and a bully. Did we lose this message along the way somewhere? Is that message also part of toxic masculinity?
ETA
Does it mean there is honourable, acceptable violence and non-acceptable violence? Isn’t that part of the issue and violence should be unacceptable in any scenario
I don’t think it’s gender specific (male) to think there is good violence and bad violence
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
yep, he never switched off - i remember them saying that aside from all the depravity adn murder, when he was driving around in his van he would not only be on the constant look out for victims, but he would be on the constant look out for the things to steal. "if it weren't tied down, dad would ahve it." - almost his whole being dedicated to teh criminal. probably one of the most "anti social" personalities to ever walk the planet.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Some of this may be around lack of reporting / barriers for older women to access services. It is possible if you’re older you’re at lower risk, but we found when we started working in GP practices, the volume of older women accessing support trebled I think. What we found is the majority had been living with abuse for 20, 30, 40, sometimes 50 years. We identified huge amounts of rape, but the women themselves didn’t necessarily see it as such, for various reasons (didn’t know rape in marriage was a crime, thought it was just their duty as a wife to be available when he wants, had happened so often they were totally detached as a coping strategy etc etc).
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
i've always tried to nurture empathy for criminals, outcasts, even political enemies etc, but after reading those books i can remember thinking "no, there's none. there is zero compassion for this person." he was a near monster in the most literal sense.
anyway, derail, apologies.
anyway, derail, apologies.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
taken on its own, i don't think it is toxic because its true. if you are a man with your physical advantage over a woman or child, then if you hit them you are a coward and bully. it's a tautology - it's logical premises are true within the sentance.
whether this does feature into a wider toxic masculinity, probably. i guess it depends what other beliefs surround it. "real men don't hit women", "we are hear to protect women" (potect them from what? oh, other men) etc and all that crap.
Not sure my addition of globally makes a huge difference to my question, it's not the crux of it.
I don't know about the stats or previous conversations here but speaking of my personal experience, I am much less at risk of sexual violence from strangers or near strangers or acquaintances or casual partners than I was as a teen and young adult. It's not something I think about in relation to myself at all really.
Ranting or checking out sounds like a very male response tbh. How about controlling your ranting and posting with reflection instead?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
In response to your question i agreed with you, altho I believe the taper both later and slower
trashpony
Hag
Until quite recently, the murders of people over 59 were not recorded in the Crime Survey. Nearly 300 women have been murdered by their husbands and sons in a decade in the U.K.
www.theguardian.com
End femicide: 278 dead – the hidden scandal of older women killed by men
The homicide toll among women over 60 in Britain is horrifying. Many cases are dismissed as accidents and not investigated. For our End Femicide campaign, we ask why society fails these victims
I wasn't talking so much about the risk for women in long term abusive relationships or other family relationships. What you say suggests the scale of hidden abuse though and the nature of escalation over time rather than 'events'.
dessiato
🇪🇸 españa te quiero
If I may refer to my experience here.
Many years ago I lived with a woman for a couple of years. Towards the end of the relationship she started becoming increasingly aggressive, she was going through a very difficult divorce. Then she hit me. On the fourth occasion I, instinctively more than anything, slapped her, hard.
I don't in anyway condone my behaviour. Anyone hitting anyone is rarely a solution to anything. On this, one occasion, I think there was a "defence." I didn't know how far she was going to go this time. I'd seen my mother stabbing my father when I was a kid.
Was it "acceptable" violence? Possibly. There was an element of self defence, maybe. I don't know. But even today, 30 almost fourty years on, I'm still bothered by my reaction.
So, I think anyone in the right circumstances can be aggressive. Doesn't make it right though.
Some of the taper of course is women modifying their own behaviour. I would not put myself in the same kind of risky situations as a more experienced and aware adult as I did as a teen and young adult.
Until quite recently, the murders of people over 59 were not recorded in the Crime Survey. Nearly 300 women have been murdered by their husbands and sons in a decade in the U.K.
End femicide: 278 dead – the hidden scandal of older women killed by men
The homicide toll among women over 60 in Britain is horrifying. Many cases are dismissed as accidents and not investigated. For our End Femicide campaign, we ask why society fails these victims
Disposable old women.
I wonder what proportion of this is also related to the constructions of the self that we make available to young women — attributes like compliance, not making a fuss, devaluing of personal needs, caring about what others think — that create additional vulnerability. Predators will recognise these signs. Something that I hear a lot from women over 40 or so is that they have gained access to other self-models through lessons that have made them challenge the assumptions they were handed. To fall back on crude archetypes — often, the person that won’t stand for the shit going down in a public place is a middle-aged woman.
JimW
支那暗杀团
What the actual fuck?Until quite recently, the murders of people over 59 were not recorded in the Crime Survey. Nearly 300 women have been murdered by their husbands and sons in a decade in the U.K.
End femicide: 278 dead – the hidden scandal of older women killed by men
The homicide toll among women over 60 in Britain is horrifying. Many cases are dismissed as accidents and not investigated. For our End Femicide campaign, we ask why society fails these victims
Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s possible for us to neutrally reflect on a personal memory like the one you describe. Your experience of it at the time was a subjective construction of the event based on how you were interpreting it. This is something you yourself have noted when you described what underlay your reaction (ie background of domestic violence in childhood). There is no such thing as a neutral, context-free interpretation of an event, and others experiencing the same event would have interpreted it differently and thus encoded the money differently. Then, when you describe your memory, you are doing so for a purpose. This purpose affects your interpretation of the event you have encoded, and causes a whole new reconstruction of the event. It has become a new subjective understanding of something that was subjectively experienced.
What we can reflect on, potentially, is the nature of why you have reconstructed this memory in this way at this time. Why have you described it with these particular features? Why did you react to this discussion by thinking of this memory at this particular time? But that is all a bit personal and I wouldn’t personally want to go there. Better to keep it conceptual and abstract, I think.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
I wish girls and women were taught how to be assertive. Not compliant, not aggressive, but properly assertive. It starts with how we express ourselves, but follows through into our body language and how we carry ourselves.
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