Feminism and violence again women

[ice-is-forming]

I'm sorry about your friend the rollercoaster of emotions after someone close to you has died by suicide is awful, and there's no instruction book for how to feel.

Ime there's the people who have knowingly struggled for years, or had other issues ( ACE scores are a fairly accurate indicator) that really make the death not so unexpected. Not that this makes it any easier.

Then there's the deaths where no one saw it coming, the person had a seemingly good and normal day. They tell their kids they'll be up in 5 minutes to read them a bed time story. They tell their wife they'll be in in 5 minutes, they've just got to put the bins out. But instead, they go into the bathroom or kitchen and suicide. Literally just like that.

The only person guaranteed not to suffer after a suicide is the deceased themselves. I don't feel anger at what they've done, I don't think that they're selfish, they obviously felt that there was no other choice at the time. It's a tragedy.

But whatever the situation, it appears to me that when men finally loose that battle, and do suicide, it often seems to happen very quickly at the end. Obviously though they've had a plan for a while, and been able to gather the means, so why doesn't that plan ( when they're thinking a bit clearer before the 'final straw' ) include making sure they're not found by their kids or wife.

And although I understand theoretically about the overwhelm they are feeling at the time, the way in which the only option they can see becomes death, the reactivity and risk taking behaviour of men... I am angry that for whatever reason, I consistently see the wives and children finding the body, in their home. Practically every time.

It's just too much and too often, it's like a phenomenon, and somehow I think it may belong on this thread

 

[LeytonCatLady]

MSN

Good. Please don't let him be eligible for parole after 30 years.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Suicide is extremely complex, I have attended suicide- murders, where the perpetrators have been both mother's and father's. At times , particularly with male perpetrators, it's obviously the final action in a long term DV relationship.

But at other times it's been a seemingly random and tragic event, that no-one saw coming. One of my clients suicided and took her 4 children aged under 6 with her.

It might be a generalisation but I remember reading that when women kill their children in murder-suicides it tends to be due to severe mental illness of a delusional nature and/or because they are trying to “protect” their child from some warped perceived danger. Whilst when men kill their children in murder-suicides, it’s often to get back at their partners/ex partners

 

[frogwoman]

MSN

Good. Please don't let him be eligible for parole after 30 years.

Yeah hopefully he's never getting out.

 

[muscovyduck]

It might be a generalisation but I remember reading that when women kill their children in murder-suicides it tends to be due to severe mental illness of a delusional nature and/or because they are trying to “protect” their child from some warped perceived danger. Whilst when men kill their children in murder-suicides, it’s often to get back at their partners/ex partners

I think it's telling that it's always punching down. People killing other people they have power over

 

[friendofdorothy]

I cannot think of any situation where if in my right mind I would have killed my wife and daughter.

This thread is not about you.

 

[Sasaferrato]

This thread is not about you.

Is there any particular reason why you have chosen to be unpleasant to me, but not to Danny or Athos?

I take it is a no then.

I'm putting you on ignore, because this isn't the first time you've done it, and I'm not prepared to put up with it, Go and try and bully someone else.

 

[iona]

Is there any particular reason why you have chosen to be unpleasant to me, but not to Danny or Athos?

I take it is a no then.

I'm putting you on ignore, because this isn't the first time you've done it, and I'm not prepared to put up with it, Go and try and bully someone else.

You basically did a #notallmen in that post that friendofdorothy quoted. That's not exactly helpful given what this thread's meant to be about, and it isn't bullying to point that out.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Is there any particular reason why you have chosen to be unpleasant to me, but not to Danny or Athos?

I take it is a no then.

I'm putting you on ignore, because this isn't the first time you've done it, and I'm not prepared to put up with it, Go and try and bully someone else.

NAM. Danny made some useful points.

You basically did a #notallmen in that post that friendofdorothy quoted. That's not exactly helpful given what this thread's meant to be about, and it isn't bullying to point that out.

Thanks. Exactly my point. Amazing how touchy some men are, when basically we are discussing femicide.

 

[iona]

Thanks. Exactly my point. Amazing how touchy some men are, when basically we are discussing femicide.

Hope that didn't come across as doing that thing of just repeating the same point that's already been made and ignored because a woman was saying it the first time!

E2a is there a word for that? It's not mansplaining exactly I don't think..?

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Yeah hopefully he's never getting out.

Apparently one of his victims got the courage to report him after WC was jailed for life. I hate to think of her suffering all that time because she didn't think she'd be believed, and that Sarah Everard had to die for misogynistic abuse to be discussed openly and for women to be told "Yes, you will be listened to and taken seriously."

Like WC, Carrick also guarded government buildings. They probably knew each other and got on due to sharing the same rancid attitudes.

 

[A380]

It’s a very controlling mindset that says something along the lines of “I need to commit suicide, but my family won’t be able to live with the grief and shame so they have to come with me, and I’m making the decision on their behalf”.

This is never something female suicides do. So the working hypothesis has to be that it’s a symptom of the socialisation of males.

It’s not something I’ve recently read up on, but I know there’s a body of work out there.

Family destruction is a common label. Often controlling and/or narcissist types ( men almost always) who have lost something big. One of the reasons the risk assessment goes up massively for abused women when they finally leave.

Cunts is another label though.

 

[weepiper]

The terror of something like this happening kept me from leaving my controlling ex for a long time. Edit, terror makes it sound too conscious. Constant background awareness that this is a thing that men do, especially men who use coercive control.

 

[muscovyduck]

Is there any particular reason why you have chosen to be unpleasant to me, but not to Danny or Athos?

I take it is a no then.

I'm putting you on ignore, because this isn't the first time you've done it, and I'm not prepared to put up with it, Go and try and bully someone else.

Do us a favour and put the whole thread on ignore

 

[Pickman's model]

Is there any particular reason why you have chosen to be unpleasant to me, but not to Danny or Athos?

I take it is a no then.

I'm putting you on ignore, because this isn't the first time you've done it, and I'm not prepared to put up with it, Go and try and bully someone else.

Read the thread or at least read the room ffs, this isn't about your feelings, or mine.

 

[ice-is-forming]

The terror of something like this happening kept me from leaving my controlling ex for a long time. Edit, terror makes it sound too conscious. Constant background awareness that this is a thing that men do, especially men who use coercive control.

Sorry that happened to you weepiper

Agent Sparrow I agree, that's been my experience, and if we can't generalise we can't talk about it.

The threat of suicide is definitely held over a partner, I hear and read ( messages) all the time. " If you leave me I'll kill myself" and often added into this is " and take the kids with me "

What person ( and it is usually women) is going to be able to ignore that with any ease. Plus take into consideration the highly publicised cases where the worst does happen...

But honestly although horrific, it's not these high profile cases that stick in my head the most, it's not the obviously dysfunctional families either.

It's the happy families, with the successful bussiness and big family homes... that seem.. until that split second, to be totally functional

The kids and wives adore their fathers and husbands, and the men very obviously adore them back. They've spent their whole lives ensuring their families don't feel pain, or suffer.

Fair enough, take your life ( I don't really mean that, please don't) but it just seems ridiculously privileged and selfish, abusive even. To do so, without considering who will find your body. For me it's now become the most abnormal and upsetting thing about suicide. Your dad or husband suiciding will fuck you up, but finding the body is another level, and in the family home takes it up that extra notch too

And intuitively, I feel that it's a part of the privilege of being a man, that they don't even think about the effect of this violence in their plan.

 

[Pickman's model]

And intuitively, I feel that it's a part of the privilege of being a man, that they don't even think about the effect of this violence in their plan.

I suspect the thought of repercussions like that is part of the calculus when such threats are made

 

[Dystopiary]

.

 

[ice-is-forming]

I suspect the thought of repercussions like that is part of the calculus when such threats are made

I'm sure they are, although tbh I actually think it's more about guilt and blame and holding power

But I wasn't talking about the men who threaten suicide as a way of control and abuse, or who leave their bodies to purposefully cause maximum pain.

I mean the happy family men, with no history of family DV, who one minute are playing footy with the kids in the garden, or have just got home from taking the teens fishing.. and the next are dead in the bedroom. Not even 5 minutes has passed, yet here they are leaving their kids or wife, more fucked up because they find the body. Male suicide is almost always a violent and ugly end too. Consider the added burden, of trying and failing to save your father or husband that you've found too. Of it happening in your family home

Thought, however fleeting has gone into the actual act, but somehow they never seem to think any further. Yes, I'm sure that they've thought that maybe the family are better off without them, or their pain is so great that they can't go on regardless of the pain they'll cause others. That's complex stuff.

But this whole, literally kill yourself in a room in your home where your family will find you.. after a lifetime of nothing but nurturing and protecting your family from trauma.. it's something else.

I'm puzzled by it, I'm sickened by it, I'm angry about it, I'm sad and I'm over it.. but I don't know what it is if it's not male privilege?
Obviously it's convenient, you know you'll be found, etc.. ironically you're in a safe place, we always hurt the ones we love etc.. but it's doing my head in, because it happens all the time. I'm happy for someone to throw me an explanation

 

[danny la rouge]

Edit: for another discussion perhaps.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Thanks danny la rouge , that is useful.

 

[danny la rouge]

Edit: for another discussion some day perhaps.

With thanks to ice-is-forming

 

[ice-is-forming]

All good delete away, I do understand exactly what you've said as Ive been there myself, you explained it very well.

Ive derailed the thread, and this isn't conversation for this forum. Thank you though, talking about it, and hearing what you've said has got me thinking now, and is actually really helpful.

 

[TopCat]

It’s a very controlling mindset that says something along the lines of “I need to commit suicide, but my family won’t be able to live with the grief and shame so they have to come with me, and I’m making the decision on their behalf”.

This is never something female suicides do. So the working hypothesis has to be that it’s a symptom of the socialisation of males.

It’s not something I’ve recently read up on, but I know there’s a body of work out there.

Bolton mother who killed herself and two daughters was ‘fixated on suicide’ | Bolton | The Guardian

Coroner says case of Tiffany Stevens, 27, and her young children is ‘one of the saddest I have heard’

amp.theguardian.com

Mum, 27, killed two daughters before taking her life in fear of 'corrupt world'

Tiffany Stevens killed herself and her toddlers with a drug overdose

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

It happens. So sad.

 

[bimble]

This headline ffs.

If only she hadn’t gone and overshadowed him.

 

[weepiper]

Bolton mother who killed herself and two daughters was ‘fixated on suicide’ | Bolton | The Guardian

Coroner says case of Tiffany Stevens, 27, and her young children is ‘one of the saddest I have heard’

amp.theguardian.com

Mum, 27, killed two daughters before taking her life in fear of 'corrupt world'

Tiffany Stevens killed herself and her toddlers with a drug overdose

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

It happens. So sad.

It happens (my friend smothered her 8 month old baby and took an overdose. She survived, the baby didn't) but it's not usual for a mother to also take out the partner. That's a male thing.

 

[weepiper]

This headline ffs.
View attachment 362749
If only she hadn’t gone and overshadowed him.

Don't get uppity, women, or the man you love might kill you and your child out of shame.

 

[Artaxerxes]

This headline ffs.
View attachment 362749
If only she hadn’t gone and overshadowed him.

Just came to post this. Absolute fucking state of it.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

This headline ffs.
View attachment 362749
If only she hadn’t gone and overshadowed him.

Saw that on Twitter this morning. So fucked up, but what do you expect from the Daily Misogynist.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I see on the thread about the hotel housing asylum seekers in Knowsley - that fears about foreign paedophiles and predatory men are being whipped up. As if it's only men from other cultures to blame for violence against women. I'm so angry.