Feminism and violence again women

[Magnus McGinty]

I'm not saying that the jury didn't convict, I'm saying that there's no such mechanism. No one gets to decide who's fair game for abuse. It's playground bully shit.

It’s also playground bully shit to bring someone’s child into an internet spat. Totally shocking behaviour. I note you didn’t remonstrate with Edie for her use of language so doesn’t feel even handed.

 

[purenarcotic]

The links between DV and drink / drugs is well known, and is a valid point for discussion here.

Isn't that why some suffragettes/feminists got into the whole temperance bandwagon. Drunk men are a danger to women. Should feminists oppose boozing? | Moira Donegan

Do people think behaviour under the influence is somehow excusable or doesn't count in some way?
Why is the consumption of alcohol / drugs, such a big part of macho culture?

Do any men, knowing their own tendancy for violence under the influence, actively abstain for that reason?

There are links, but it’s really important to not forget that usually there will be coercive control / emotional abuse already present and in the background. There are men who are only abusive when drunk, but it’s vanishingly small in my experience to those who already abuse, but their abuse escalates when under the influence. If I had a pound just for the number of women who I have spoken to who called up saying he’s only abusive when drunk and within 15 minutes we’ve unearthed a raft of emotional or financial abuse etc I’d be really fucking rich. And that’s just me never mind as a service as a whole.

You (I don’t mean you directly, the general you) might not see the coercive control because that’s the whole point of it. She might not even see it for a long time. But most of the time, it’s there and the drug and alcohol related abuse isn’t occurring in a vacuum. All abuse is linked, they aren’t isolated incidents.

 

[purenarcotic]

I don’t know also whether when the police release these stats about DV and football how much they filter out. Two brothers having a punch over something silly because they’ve got pissed up is defined as DV. Not saying them doing it is okay or that it isn’t problematic, but it’s not the same context when we’re thinking about violence against women within their intimate relationships.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Further to my post yesterday about football…

A study from Warwick University finds that alcohol related DV increases by 47% after a World Cup England match win.

Domestic abuse increases almost 50 per cent after England win at World Cup | News | Warwick Business School

Reported cases of domestic abuse increase sharply after the England men's football team win at a major tournament, figures show.

www.wbs.ac.uk

The Role of Alcohol in the Link Between Football Tournaments and Domestic Abuse

New Publication: Providing Eyewitness Confidence Judgements During Versus After Eyewitness Interviews Does Not Affect the Confidence-Accuracy Relationship

warwick.ac.uk

This is paywalled. From The Economist.

Domestic violence surges after a football match ends

Alcohol is a major player in the relationship between sport and abuse

www.economist.com

BBC report here

The truth about domestic violence and the World Cup

“I would just sit there silently willing, willing his team to win”

www.bbc.co.uk

After a loss, DV increases by 38% . After a win, DV increases by 47%.

Alcohol is obviously a big part of this but the football culture and how men feel when their team wins or loses is also a really significant part of this weird praxis.

I can recall a policeman friend saying that when Rangers played Celtic, there was little or no police leave. Domestic violence call outs rose by a factor of three.

He is old enough to have been in the police when DV was regarded as a 'within the family' matter, and not a police matter.

 

[story]

I agree purenarcotic . I mainly went to the thing about football in order to point out that there are any number of things (football, booze, anabolic steroids) that are assumed to be contributing factors but they don't actially explain male on female violence.

 

[story]

That's clumsy. I'm on the move so can't write anything more considered or nuanced right now.

 

[story]

I agree purenarcotic . I mainly went to the thing about football in order to point out that there are any number of things (football, booze, anabolic steroids) that are assumed to be contributing factors but they don't actially explain male on female violence.

I don't think such things mitigate the violence either.

 

[danny la rouge]

Just a thought guys, but maybe the women of Urban could do with a thread that doesn’t have the men of Urban strutting around all over it. You don’t have to post to show you care. Contemplative reading is also OK.

(I recognise the irony of me speaking up given what I’m asking you to consider, but please accept the thought as comradely in intention).

 

[A380]

Just a thought guys, but maybe the women of Urban could do with a thread that doesn’t have the men of Urban strutting around all over it. You don’t have to post to show you care. Contemplative reading is also OK.

(I recognise the irony of me speaking up given what I’m asking you to consider, but please accept the thought as comradely in intention).

I was tempted to write something very similar but couldn't find the right form of words.

 

[Dystopiary]

The actress Clare Foy was being the target of a stalker, who has been given a suspended sentence, with conditions.
He had been handed a stalking protection order in July after sending Ms Foy thousand of emails and turning up at her door.
He admitted breaching an interim stalking ban by sending a letter and a parcel to her.

The conditions of his suspended sentence include that he must remain under the care of a psychiatrist in the UK until his repatriation, and that he must cooperate fully with his return to the US. The court heard that he would return to Florida to live with his mother and receive further psychiatric care.

If he returns to the UK during his suspended sentence, he must notify the Metropolitan police of his arrival, telling them where he intends to stay and for how long.

[The judge, David] Aaronberg also imposed a restraining order banning Penrose from contacting or attempting to contact Foy directly or indirectly, and from sending any letters, gifts, parcels or packages to her. Penrose is also barred from entering the London boroughs of Camden and Islington, apart from to collect his US passport.

He is prohibited from going within 100 metres of any premises at which he knows or has reason to believe that Foy might be present.

Glad this has been taken seriously. Well, it seems so. I wonder how long it took; thousands of emails is pretty awful.

According to the judge, Ms Foy:

“become scared and suspicious of post she does not recognise and of her front doorbell ringing” since being stalked. He added: “She told the police she was frightened to leave her property in case you might follow her.”

Quoting a statement from the actor, he said: “I feel like the freedoms I enjoyed before Mr Penrose contacted me have now gone. I view the world in a much more fearful way.”

Hopefully she won't have to hear from him again and can begin to heal from this nasty episode of her life.

Claire Foy stalker given suspended sentence and to be repatriated to US

 

[RainbowTown]

"Blood on their hands" about sums it up alright.

Probation service and ministers have ‘blood on hands’, say Zara Aleena’s family

Watchdog report uncovers series of failings in supervision of Jordan McSweeney, who murdered the law graduate last year

www.theguardian.com

Zara Aleena killer wrongly assessed as medium risk by probation

The law graduate's killer could have been recalled to prison before the attack, a report has found.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[danny la rouge]

This was my guess when the story broke. Sadly now seems to be the case.

Epsom College deaths: Teacher and daughter shot by husband, police believe Epsom College deaths: Teacher and daughter shot by husband, police believe

What a prick. Why couldn’t he just kill himself?

 

[belboid]

It was pretty obviously that from the off, the way they said no one else involved. I suppose it could have been her killing them all, but it never is.

Meanwhile, Carrick is being sentenced now. There is a livestream, but the audio is mostly cut off because it is too horrific

 

[baldrick]

I thought the same. Another sad, inadequate loser of a man taking out his frustrations on his family. It's never a benign death like CO2 poisoning or anything is it. No, they get stabbed or shot or set on fire.

RIP Lettie and Emma

 

[danny la rouge]

I thought the same. Another sad, inadequate loser of a man taking out his frustrations on his family. It's never a benign death like CO2 poisoning or anything is it. No, they get stabbed or shot or set on fire.

RIP Lettie and Emma

Yes, I was holding off jumping to conclusions in case it was accidental carbon monoxide or something. But predictably not.

 

[Sasaferrato]

This was my guess when the story broke. Sadly now seems to be the case.

Epsom College deaths: Teacher and daughter shot by husband, police believe Epsom College deaths: Teacher and daughter shot by husband, police believe

What a prick. Why couldn’t he just kill himself?

Because he was ill?

 

[Athos]

Because he was ill?

Not impossible. But maybe we shouldn't rush to proffer - absent any evidence - an explanation that minimises his culpability.

 

[danny la rouge]

Because he was ill?

It’s a very controlling mindset that says something along the lines of “I need to commit suicide, but my family won’t be able to live with the grief and shame so they have to come with me, and I’m making the decision on their behalf”.

This is never something female suicides do. So the working hypothesis has to be that it’s a symptom of the socialisation of males.

It’s not something I’ve recently read up on, but I know there’s a body of work out there.

 

[baldrick]

Some suggestion that his business had gone bust recently. Hence the comment on the podcast that was picked up by the news that he had 'unexpectedly' got a new job.

Classic behaviour from the kind of person that sees his family as extensions of themselves.

 

[Sasaferrato]

It’s a very controlling mindset that says something along the lines of “I need to commit suicide, but my family won’t be able to live with the grief and shame so they have to come with me, and I’m making the decision on their behalf”.

This is never something female suicides do. So the working hypothesis has to be that it’s a symptom of the socialisation of males.

It’s not something I’ve recently read up on, but I know there’s a body of work out there.

I cannot think of any situation where if in my right mind I would have killed my wife and daughter.

 

[danny la rouge]

Edit: for another discussion perhaps.

 

[baldrick]

I cannot think of any situation where if in my fight mind I would have killed my wife and daughter.

You're not a controlling abusive person. Of course you wouldn't think like that.

 

[Athos]

Conversely, I've never been suicidal, but have contemplated murder, albeit not of the wife and kids.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Suicide is extremely complex, I have attended suicide- murders, where the perpetrators have been both mother's and father's. At times , particularly with male perpetrators, it's obviously the final action in a long term DV relationship.

But at other times it's been a seemingly random and tragic event, that no-one saw coming. One of my clients suicided and took her 4 children aged under 6 with her.

 

[danny la rouge]

Suicide is extremely complex, I have attended suicide- murders, where the perpetrators have been both mother's and father's. At times , particularly with male perpetrators, it's obviously the final action in a long term DV relationship.

But at other times it's been a seemingly random and tragic event, that no-one saw coming. One of my clients suicided and took her 4 children aged under 6 with her.

Yes, sorry. I was very sloppy with my language earlier. I meant I hadn’t read of women murder-suicides where they’d taken their partner with them.

I of course have no expertise in this area.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Yes, sorry. I was very sloppy with my language earlier. I meant I hadn’t read of women murder-suicides where they’d taken their partner with them.

I of course have no expertise in this area.

You're right in that; in general the perpetrator of a 'partnered' murder - suicide, is iirc 90 % male. I'd hazzard a guess that approx 60% of those have a known history of DV. But the other 40% would be for more esoteric reasons.

Not taking any stats re LGBTIQ+ relationships into consideration.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Yes, sorry. I was very sloppy with my language earlier. I meant I hadn’t read of women murder-suicides where they’d taken their partner with them.

I of course have no expertise in this area.

Nor me. Thank fuck.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Nor me. Thank fuck.

I wish I wasn't, but here we are.

Tbh, even when men suicide (without it being a murder-suicide scenario) I often feel (uncharitablly) that it's an act of violence towards their wives and children. Even when there's no history of DV. It feels aggressive and thoughtless.

Suicide is complex and people are unwell, but still.. I can't help but have an emotional, angry reaction these days, when 90% of who I see, are women and children who's partners and fathers have suicided, with absolutely no thought about their family being the ones who will find them.

I know it's unreasonable, but if you're capable of carrying it out, surely you're capable of not doing it in the next room, or the shed or the garden. This is what happens all the time. And the police don't clean up the scene either.

there's very few exceptions

 

[RainbowTown]

wish I wasn't, but here we are.

Tbh, even when men suicide (without it being a murder-suicide scenario) I often feel ( uncharitablly) that it's an act of violence towards their wife and children. Even when there's no history of DV. It feels aggressive and thoughtless.

Suicide is complex and people are unwell, but still.. I can't help but have an emotional, angry reaction these days, when 90% of who I see, are women and children who's partners and fathers have suicided, with absolutely no thought about their family being the ones who will find them.

I know it's unreasonable, but if you're capable of carrying it out, surely you're capable of not doing it in the next room, or the shed or the garden. This is what happens all the time.

there's very few exceptions

It's an entirely understandable reaction, and some of those feelings I have felt too.

I don't want to go into too much detail here, but a friend of mine killed himself a number of years ago. He had some mental health issues and despite receiving ongoing help and support (both professionally and from his family and friends) he ended his life. My initial reaction to his death - shock and disbelief - soon turned to suppressed but genuinely felt anger and defiance. I thought what a selfish bastard he was and how could he have done that to his family and all of his mates . My emotions were raw, all over the place. I was in grief and denial, and feeling guilt too; guilt that maybe I didn't help him enough and maybe I'd missed the signs of what he was about to do. I readily admit it, it did take some weeks to shake off those feelings. But shake them off I did. Because I realized deep down he was in no way to blame for the circumstances nor consequences that followed his death. And that maybe like a lot of suicides, his mind had simply become so overwhelmed and engulfed that he'd reached the point where any rational thought had all but closed down. He'd simply lost the battle within himself. And for that he can't be held responsible. He was a gentle soul and I still miss him lots.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

When i was a kid my Dad told me that he was so low at one point in his life that considered killing us all and committing suicide. I've carried that with me for years now. I have not dared tell anyone about this - I'm sure its fucked me up to certain degree. I mean I was suicidal and clinically depressed as a child so who knows...