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Feminism and violence again women

Okay I get it.

So if a bloke is drunk and gropes a woman, that goes some way to explain his behaviour.

Yes , it does, because alcohol disinhibits. Goes some way to explain, not in any way condone.

Someone who assaults a woman whilst drunk is someone who keeps their instincts under control whilst sober, all alcohol does is unmask the underlying tendency.
 
Yes , it does, because alcohol disinhibits. Goes some way to explain, not in any way condone.

Someone who assaults a woman whilst drunk is someone who keeps their instincts under control whilst sober, all alcohol does is unmask the underlying tendency.


Well that's alright then. So long as they maintain control over their attitudes and instincts and don't let them spill over into behaviour there's nothing to worry about.
 
Well that's alright then. So long as they maintain control over their attitudes and instincts and don't let them spill over into behaviour there's nothing to worry about.

I don't recall saying that, perhaps you could point out where I did?

What I said was pretty much the opposite, the tendency to abhorrent behaviour is there, alcohol, because it is disinhibiting, brings it out.

I'm absolutely sure that someone so inclined would commit an assault in any situation where they felt they wouldn't have to answer for it.
 
Fred West famously not a big drinker or steroid user. It’s a bizarre thing to introduce to the topic.
See the bottom picture in post #667. That is what brought it to mind.

Have a wee poke about on the net re violence towards women associated with steroid use.

This for example:

 
Sasaferrato
You're missing the point.

Plenty of men who take anabolic steroids don't end up stamping a woman to death.
The brutal attack on a woman on her way home is the outlier. It's an extreme expression of something that all women have to deal with on a fairly constant basis. Even those who don't experience shitty behaviour directly in their walking around life still have to deal with it in the media etc. The relentless water torture effects of seeing women objectified sexualised and commodified, as well as repeated reading about attacks and assaults on other women, is significant.
And that daily bullshit isn't fuelled by steroids or alcohol.

Saying "yeah but maybe the extreme nature of this particular attack was fuelled by steroids" minimises and even expunges all the billions of other misogynistic crappy factors that fed McSweeny's brain and built him into the person who did that.

The stupid macho shit that makes men want to get hench and take steroids is as much at fault. That's part of the patriarchy too.
 
See the bottom picture in post #667. That is what brought it to mind.

Have a wee poke about on the net re violence towards women associated with steroid use.

This for example:



Domestic violence increases after they lose the football. The increase when they win the football is even greater.



ETA
I have heard and I’m sure read this before but can’t now find any good reference for it. Plenty of articles and study papers looking at the effects of sport on domestic violence stats.
 
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Further to my post yesterday about football…

A study from Warwick University finds that alcohol related DV increases by 47% after a World Cup England match win.





This is paywalled. From The Economist.


A fourth behaviour has also become grimly predictable: a surge in domestic violence after the final whistle. A study in 2014 by academics at Lancaster University looked at the number of reports of abuse to a police force in the north-west of England during three football World Cups. They found that such reports increased by 26% when the national team won or drew, and by 38% when the team lost (other studies suggest abuse is worse when England wins).



BBC report here





After a loss, DV increases by 38% . After a win, DV increases by 47%.

Alcohol is obviously a big part of this but the football culture and how men feel when their team wins or loses is also a really significant part of this weird praxis.
 
Yes , it does, because alcohol disinhibits. Goes some way to explain, not in any way condone.

Someone who assaults a woman whilst drunk is someone who keeps their instincts under control whilst sober, all alcohol does is unmask the underlying tendency.
This thread is discussing underlying tendencies, wrongly legitimised entitlement and other aspects of patriarchal culture that impact on Women. As you well know.
 
The links between DV and drink / drugs is well known, and is a valid point for discussion here.

Isn't that why some suffragettes/feminists got into the whole temperance bandwagon. Drunk men are a danger to women. Should feminists oppose boozing? | Moira Donegan

Do people think behaviour under the influence is somehow excusable or doesn't count in some way?
Why is the consumption of alcohol / drugs, such a big part of macho culture?

Do any men, knowing their own tendancy for violence under the influence, actively abstain for that reason?
 
It’s a question that needs to be asked but no one like that will be reading this thread.


A mate of mine abstains because his inner prick comes out when he’s drunk. I’ve never seen the inner prick in any other context but very drunk. He‘s in a LT hetero relationship, his graduate daughter and his elderly mother both live with him. He has several close women friends. He’s a good bloke and he clearly does have decent relationships with the women in his life. But the inner prick is real too.

We’ve had several conversations about this but in the end the discussion stalled because he felt so wretched about his inner prick that he hates to talk about it, and now that he abstains it’s “not a problem”.

We‘ve tried to talk about it all in more general terms : where do we learn this behaviour… once we’re conditioned is it possible /how possible is it to get rid of the conditioning… if alcohol enables the inner prick to re-emerge, did it ever really go away… etc. but we didn’t get to any conclusions.

He had a troubled and disrupted upbringing in a heavy drinking culture at a time when misogyny was completely normalised. He really struggles with this question of “How much of this is me, how much is conditioning” but his solution is “since I no longer drink it’s no longer a problem”. Which is only true if you limit the ”problem“ to the behaviour and ignore the underlying foundational stuff.
 
Interesting posts friendofdorothy and story. This is a subject that I've thought about quite a lot and I really appreciate the space to talk about it, except I can't seem to quite make my thoughts make sense.

I have had three male friends who have been violent to their partners whilst drunk. For two of them it seemed very out of character.

One of the men gave up drinking and coke for a long period afterwards. When he eventually started drinking again he used to take himself away from people he knew when he was on a bender, possibly because he didn't want friends to see him like that and/or didn't trust himself. So I guess he first abstained from drinking then, when he couldn't do that anymore, tried to abstain from seeing people while he was drunk. Because of this, I don't know if he ever assaulted anyone else whilst drunk.

The situation with one of the other men was very troubling. I've known him for a long time and he's always had a bit of a violent edge but drinking lots seems to unlock something extra dark in him. Other mutual friends had already stopped seeing him as they were concerned about his attitude to women. After one particularly unpleasant night out with him where he threatened many other people I decided I would never go out drinking with him again. Several years later we were both having a bad patch with drinking and he phoned me to talk about it. Having been to a few AA meetings, I'm generally primed to be non-judgmental when people talk about things they've done while drinking framed in a certain way but as he explained in more detail I couldn't help judge him because it was awful. He downplayed it as being a row with his partner, then kept saying a little more and a little more of what had happened and eventually admitted he'd assaulted her quite badly while she was holding their baby. And I'm pretty sure he did more than he told me. One thing that made me very uncomfortable was that he kept saying how similar our situations were, as the row had been about his drinking and my partner had just asked me to cut down on my drinking. But there was a big difference. When my partner asked me to cut down my drinking, I did. When his partner asked him, he attacked her. He blamed her for bringing it up whilst he was drunk, effectively for nagging him. He seemed to feel that being drunk and having a drinking problem excused him - she should have taken it into account and acted differently. He had stopped drinking, started counselling and said some things that were clearly supposed to show that he felt guilty and knew he'd done wrong, but the longer we talked the more he started angrily ranting about her and I didn't feel that she was much safer with the angry sober version of him than the drunk one.

With all of them it changed my opinion of them, to know that they were capable of that. Even though it only happened when they were drunk, and as far as I know only happened once (although I may be wrong about that), I felt that there must be something in them that alcohol brought out. And I was uncomfortable with that. Also, I believe all of them downplayed what they had done and that the assaults were worse than they admitted to.

I don't think stopping drinking on its own is enough. If a man assaults people when he's drunk, then stopping drinking is a necessary emergency measure for everyone's immediate safety. But stopping drinking is always the beginning of the work, not the end of it. For everyone's long term safety and happiness he needs to figure out what was going on at a deeper level and make sure that is dealt with.
 
Interesting posts friendofdorothy and story. This is a subject that I've thought about quite a lot and I really appreciate the space to talk about it, except I can't seem to quite make my thoughts make sense.

I have had three male friends who have been violent to their partners whilst drunk. For two of them it seemed very out of character.

One of the men gave up drinking and coke for a long period afterwards. When he eventually started drinking again he used to take himself away from people he knew when he was on a bender, possibly because he didn't want friends to see him like that and/or didn't trust himself. So I guess he first abstained from drinking then, when he couldn't do that anymore, tried to abstain from seeing people while he was drunk. Because of this, I don't know if he ever assaulted anyone else whilst drunk.

The situation with one of the other men was very troubling. I've known him for a long time and he's always had a bit of a violent edge but drinking lots seems to unlock something extra dark in him. Other mutual friends had already stopped seeing him as they were concerned about his attitude to women. After one particularly unpleasant night out with him where he threatened many other people I decided I would never go out drinking with him again. Several years later we were both having a bad patch with drinking and he phoned me to talk about it. Having been to a few AA meetings, I'm generally primed to be non-judgmental when people talk about things they've done while drinking framed in a certain way but as he explained in more detail I couldn't help judge him because it was awful. He downplayed it as being a row with his partner, then kept saying a little more and a little more of what had happened and eventually admitted he'd assaulted her quite badly while she was holding their baby. And I'm pretty sure he did more than he told me. One thing that made me very uncomfortable was that he kept saying how similar our situations were, as the row had been about his drinking and my partner had just asked me to cut down on my drinking. But there was a big difference. When my partner asked me to cut down my drinking, I did. When his partner asked him, he attacked her. He blamed her for bringing it up whilst he was drunk, effectively for nagging him. He seemed to feel that being drunk and having a drinking problem excused him - she should have taken it into account and acted differently. He had stopped drinking, started counselling and said some things that were clearly supposed to show that he felt guilty and knew he'd done wrong, but the longer we talked the more he started angrily ranting about her and I didn't feel that she was much safer with the angry sober version of him than the drunk one.

With all of them it changed my opinion of them, to know that they were capable of that. Even though it only happened when they were drunk, and as far as I know only happened once (although I may be wrong about that), I felt that there must be something in them that alcohol brought out. And I was uncomfortable with that. Also, I believe all of them downplayed what they had done and that the assaults were worse than they admitted to.

I don't think stopping drinking on its own is enough. If a man assaults people when he's drunk, then stopping drinking is a necessary emergency measure for everyone's immediate safety. But stopping drinking is always the beginning of the work, not the end of it. For everyone's long term safety and happiness he needs to figure out what was going on at a deeper level and make sure that is dealt with.
I no longer speak to someone who was my best friend for over forty years, because he assaulted his disabled wife, and blamed her for provoking the attack. He also commented that he had to get out of the house, or he would have fucking killed her.

The thing that really hurt, and still does, was his assumption that I would take his side.
 
In all the countries where men are now allowed to self ID as women, they've stopped recording stats by sex. Violence against women and girls has been disappeared.
 
Well I've been watching women's rights get fucked over. Not for me, but for all the girls who now have to lie. You know that
 
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