Feminism and violence again women

[friendofdorothy]

I would like there to be some consideration for the stress the constant vigilance women suffer.

 

[story]

story You didn't try to correct anything in my posts. If they're so wrong it should be easy for you. Maybe they're not wrong, and instead of using your internet connection to write nonsense you should be educating yourself? There are lots of research papers about sexual arousal of rapists and the genetics of sexual violence against women.

You've made one basic, stupid, probably deliberate error, which is to say that by explaining the urge to rape I'm trying to justify it. I'm not. Note that I've bracketed rape with killing as survival mechanisms. I'm not trying to justify murder either. But you want to pretend that I'm trying to justify rape because you'd rather have a bunfight than a reasoned, intelligent discussion. Get your 'noble savage' LOLs and your likes! You've earned them!

Have a shitty day, you deserve it.

You’re trying to explain rape it by saying that men have a genetic predisposition to rape, something that’s been selected in by generations of men raping women and getting rich and powerful as a result.


And you ask why/how men can get an erection when they rape women.

The two things are connected.

Men get erections when they rape because it’s not about sexual desire (this is absolutely day one basic stuff by the way). Rape is about power and control, anger and the insistence on overpowering and defeating the victim. That’s exactly why it’s used as a weapon of war, as a way to assert and hold political or military power, and as a way to destroy the neighbouring tribe. The erection is not because they feel desire for the victim, it’s because they feel powerful, pumped up, in control, a winner.

Some rapist either don’t get an erection, or lose their erection. This can increase their rage and fury towards the victim and lead to greater harm and assault, either rape with an object or beating the victim. That’s because rape isn’t about sexual desire, it’s about power and control and the inability to complete the rape enrages them.

If you are genuinely interested in this topic there are loads of research papers and scholarly studies that have examined this. Don’t ask me to explain this in more detail. I’m not the one who needs to do more work here, you are.


This idea that men have a rape gene. Have you any studies or papers or essays that support this idea? I’d like to see them, who wrote them.

Do all men have this gene or only the ones that actually commit rape? How do non-rapist men handle their rapey nature? Women who rape : do they also have a rape gene? What about peadophiles who rape children, is their rape gene specifically geared to rape children? How about the men who rape their long term partners, what political or monetary or property gain do they achieve by raping someone they already have sexual access to? And what’s going on with sexually predatory men who don’t go as far as rape but do the groping the flashing and the inappropriate touching and the heavy breathing phone calls: is their rape gene only switched on a little bit? Or maybe they’re successfully controlling their genetic tendency, reining it in a bit?

Saying it‘s genetic means that men can’t do anything to unwrap the problem. It’s a neat get out clause. If the problem of rape is actually societal, then it becomes necessary for men engage with the problem, and there is a resulting obligation to take it on as a responsibility. Men who are unwilling to do that ( while women have little or no choice about engaging with the issue)) then need an alternative reason, something like “it’s genetic”., which leaves them free to shrug their shoulders and say “can’t be helped I suppose”.





In my view it’s far more likely that the agrarian revolution was one of the important triggers for the development of the patriarchy and rape becoming a tool / weapon of the patriarchy. The necessity to claim ownership of the land so that you can tend crops, the necessity to guard and hoard the harvest etc is possibly the root of the objectification of women, the sense of ownership and the imbalance of power that leads to rape. You’ve tried to support your theory with very recent examples but we know that rape goes back into antiquity, it was already a central trope in (for instance) Greek mythology. Punishment for rape was codified as early as 2,000 BCE.

If rape is recognised as a crime as early as 2000BCE ( and by the way it was seen as a crime against the husband or the household in many places, not the woman… while it’s wrong that the women was not considered the victim, it does show very clearly that rape is about ownership power control) if rape is punished as a crime so early, how does that square with your theory about the rape gene? Surely if there is a rape gene, it would have been seen as normal natural and acceptable to rape, not sometihg that was a punishable crime.

If we can see written evidence for this as early as 4000 years ago, it must have been seen as a crime much earlier too, So if it’s an expression of genetics, where is the threshold between “no such thing as rape” and “rape is an inevitable and inescapable behavioural trait”? And why were those first rapists not ousted by their community, if it was a rare gene that then got selected in?

 

[story]

I would like there to be some consideration for the stress the constant vigilance women suffer.

I think there’s a lot of low grade background ptsd in women and girls that is caused by this vigilance and the second guessing that goes with it.

 

[friendofdorothy]

If we are saying men are genentically programmed to rape and murder then the extreme S.C.U.M manifesto makes perfect sense. Not a helpful line of thinking for all the non violent men out there and a terrifying thought for women.

 

[Sue]

Thanks for reposting that stuff, friendofdorothy. It's all just so utterly depressing though.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Thanks for reposting that stuff, friendofdorothy. It's all just so utterly depressing though.

this whole thread is depressing. Important but fucking depressing.

 

[kabbes]

I know just enough about genetics to know that the idea of a “rape gene” makes no more sense than the idea of a “rape kidney”. And I certainly know enough about psychology to find the concept laughable if it wasn’t so depressing.

 

[Edie]

I would like there to be some consideration for the stress the constant vigilance women suffer.

I don’t experience constant vigilance. Majority of the time I feel safe. I experience vigilance and even fear when I feel threat- at night, a dodgy area, not many people around, or a man/men who is targeting me. I’m not convinced that level of vigilance is more than my two sons, who are much more likely to encounter random violence and robbery and be targeted for that. That’s the stranger danger stuff.

Where I think it branches off is fear within the home or within sexual relationships. I think women are much more vulnerable then than men.

I’m not saying that to be smug but as balance. I recognise that for some women they do live with permanent hyper vigilance when outside and that must be grim. But I’m not convinced the majority do, or if it’s helpful to focus on in this type of discussion.

 

[Saunders]

bmd

I get that you feel that you’re engaging in good faith. And I understand why you feel really defensive around this fear that you might be more like your dad than you want to be. But if you really do want to engage with this discussion you’re going to have to deal with your own feelings yourself and not bring them here as an attack on the debate. Right now you're blaming the women on here and their responses for your feelings of being challenged at a really deep level.

Rather than telling women they’re too angry or not understanding men, maybe you can ask some men about what it felt like to be challenged about their inherent misogyny and how they navigated that. There have been some threads started to try to discuss the male experience of the patriarchy but for some reason they’ve all petered out.

I could say “I wonder why...” but actually I reckon it’s exactly because men find it really fucking difficult to talk about this stuff. And that’s part of the problem. Women ask men to think and talk about misogyny the patriarchy violence against women to each other and those conversations just don’t seem to gain traction.

I get it. It’s confusing to try to understand the lived experience of another gender or sex, and it’s really hard to look at the system that one lives within. That’s really challenging even before you get to the bit that says “men are inherently problematic by virtue of this thing that you can’t change about yourself”.

Have you read the posts David Clapson made about men having a rape gene and asking how men get erect when raping? I’m not going to tag him or quote it because jesus fucking Christ. Those post were made in and around your recent posts here and it’s possible that yours got some of the shade cast by his posts. As a suggestion, go back and read them and see what your feelings and opinions are about what he wrote. If you don’t find them ignorant outrageous and alarming you need to think about why, and also think about what they illustrate and demonstrate about misogyny and the roots of violence against women.


With the usual NAMNAW caveats, men seem to get stuck on needing women to spoonfeed them the argument and discussion point by point from the most basic stuff, and then get angry and frustrated when women refuse to do so. Women are tired of doing this and getting nowhere. Even if that goes well with this man, and the next, there will always always be another man who needs this most basic introduction, or who refuses to do the work, or just won’t accept it, or gives up because it’s too hard or.... So (possibly) every single woman posting and reading this has had years and years of not only living under the cosh of the patriarchy but also many years of repeatedly trying to talk to men about this stuff. Men insist on only discussing it on their own terms, and only when they want to.


If you genuinely want to engage with this I’d suggest that when something makes you feel uncomfortable or angry, rather than going on the offence you take a step back and ask yourself - or even in a post - “why has this made me feel so uncomfortable?”

I’m sorry if this seems patronising. It probably is patronising. I don’t mean it to be but it looks as if you really do need to go back to the beginning and start from scratch with tackling your internal structures with this stuff.

Word
Thank you for taking the time to write this and for bothering to engage.

 

[spanglechick]

I could tell from the post above mine that a lot of the thread is distinctly missable. I'll read it when I'm bored.

Can you see that you’ve implied that to be worthy of your time, this thread about male violence against women and girls needs to be more cheerful?
What do we have to be cheerful about?

I think there’s a lot of low grade background ptsd in women and girls that is caused by this vigilance and the second guessing that goes with it.

Women are also socially conditioned to be people pleasers much more often than men. To tolerate behaviour that makes us feel uncomfortable or threatened. To hedge our opinions and smother our complaints in apologies. To normalise being objectified. My middle sister, who is gorgeous and charismatic told me, in the aftermath of #metoo that she’d never experienced sexual harassment or assault. It seemed unlikely so I asked “you’ve never had some drunk twat in a bar grab your bum or comment on your tits in a way that was unwelcome?”
“Well yes” she said “but that’s just how it is.”

I am torn between feeling sad that she’s spent her life accepting this, and jealous that she is probably happier for it. But I don’t think it’s healthy.

In the last few years I’ve decided to embrace my anger. Anger is absolutely proportionate here. I will not apologise for complaining. I will not cheer up. I will not prioritise fragile male comfort over improving safety and respect for women. I need my anger to drive me through the people pleasing habits of a lifetime.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Women are also socially conditioned to be people pleasers much more often than men. To tolerate behaviour that makes us feel uncomfortable or threatened. To hedge our opinions and smother our complaints in apologies. To normalise being objectified. My middle sister, who is gorgeous and charismatic told me, in the aftermath of #metoo that she’d never experienced sexual harassment or assault. It seemed unlikely so I asked “you’ve never had some drunk twat in a bar grab your bum or comment on your tits in a way that was unwelcome?”
“Well yes” she said “but that’s just how it is.”

I am torn between feeling sad that she’s spent her life accepting this, and jealous that she is probably happier for it. But I don’t think it’s healthy.

I wonder where 'the line' is drawn, at what point would people generally accept it is assault and not just how it is? If its only verbal? Is it less acceptable if a man who is not drunk grabs a woman? or if a man grabs a womans breasts?

I know from experience that expressing intolerance of such unwanted behaviour can quickly esculate an uncomfortable situation into a dangerous one.

In the last few years I’ve decided to embrace my anger. Anger is absolutely proportionate here. I will not apologise for complaining. I will not cheer up. I will not prioritise fragile male comfort over improving safety and respect for women. I need my anger to drive me through the people pleasing habits of a lifetime.

Glad you've embraced your anger.

 

[bmd]

Hey BFFs!

Here’s my working out since last we met. Men are taught that they are leaders. Not necessarily of people, more like they have power to wield. Alpha male. There’s only two types of humans so I guess men are taught that strength, their physical strength is wielded through power over physically weaker humans. Implied rather than overt. There are many men who feel their birth right, to wield power over others isn’t theirs so they enforce that belief in other ways. Rape is the far end of that issue.

Thing is, not all of us want this power or court it but how do we reject it? Personally is relatively simple but out there in society?

Hate awaaaaay, my BFFs. I look forward to bathing in it.

Oh and DEATH TO ALL MEN! Or just bring back capital punishment for crimes against women.

 

[Poot]

I had a sad experience in the library of all places last week. Two fifteen year old boys started watching porn I think. I was the only woman, they were clearly after a reaction, I didn't even turn around. But what they were saying was SO horrific and SO gratuitous and SO performative, I just wondered how they reached that point, really. Eventually security kicked them out but it made me sad. I expect they'll either be in jail or dead soon and some poor woman or women will be trying to re-piece her life together again. Just awful. What do you do? I have no answers. But these are not happy kids. These are dangerous kids. And they will be dangerous men.

 

[Edie]

I had a sad experience in the library of all places last week. Two fifteen year old boys started watching porn I think. I was the only woman, they were clearly after a reaction, I didn't even turn around. But what they were saying was SO horrific and SO gratuitous and SO performative, I just wondered how they reached that point, really. Eventually security kicked them out but it made me sad. I expect they'll either be in jail or dead soon and some poor woman or women will be trying to re-piece her life together again. Just awful. What do you do? I have no answers. But these are not happy kids. These are dangerous kids. And they will be dangerous men.

Wow that sounds really horrible mate.

 

[bluescreen]

A quick take:

Hey BFFs!

Here’s my working out since last we met.

Men are taught

Note the passive voice here. That is a big part of the problem right there. It’s structural and still largely unacknowledged

that they are leaders.

It’s more the case that people learn/learned that leaders are/were men.
Because they were.
Less so now, but when I was growing up it was a given. Even now when you ask someone to picture a scientist it will be a white man in a lab coat. (Racism is a whole nother structural failing.)

Not necessarily of people, more like they have power to wield. Alpha male. There’s only two types of humans so I guess men are taught that strength, their physical strength is wielded through power over physically weaker humans. Implied rather than overt.

Men don’t have to be taught this. Every female knows that males are stronger. Even teenage boys and OAPs can generally out-grip the average adult female. 'Female submissiveness' is self-preservation.

There are many men who feel their birth right, to wield power over others isn’t theirs so they enforce that belief in other ways.

Not sure where you're going with this. Class is another structural horror but male violence against women is no respecter of class or income. It is sex-class based.
Females who challenge the norm are a threat to the ‘natural order’ as much as the sun rising in the west.

Rape is the far end of that issue.

Plus testosterone. It can be a dangerous drug.

Thing is, not all of us want this power or court it but how do we reject it? Personally is relatively simple but out there in society?

Well, maybe carry on reading and listening. Challenge friends who are being sexist/racist/classist/ableist/obnoxious.

Hate awaaaaay, my BFFs. I look forward to bathing in it.

Oh and DEATH TO ALL MEN! Or just bring back capital punishment for crimes against women.

And don't be silly.

 

[Poot]

Wow that sounds really horrible mate.

The worst thing was bumping into my innocent-looking son afterwards and having to warn him not to walk that way, knowing he might get attacked because they were waiting for a target and by that point anyone would do.

 

[kalidarkone]

I had a sad experience in the library of all places last week. Two fifteen year old boys started watching porn I think. I was the only woman, they were clearly after a reaction, I didn't even turn around. But what they were saying was SO horrific and SO gratuitous and SO performative, I just wondered how they reached that point, really. Eventually security kicked them out but it made me sad. I expect they'll either be in jail or dead soon.

Or an MP or policeman or footballer ...film director....actor...etc.....probably not in jail or far from dead.

 

[Poot]

Or an MP or policeman or footballer ...film director....actor...etc.....probably not in jail or far from dead.

Good point well made. Yes.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Saw in the Standard that there are 143 police officers were under investigation for offences of domestic abuse, and 42 are still working as normal.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I don’t experience constant vigilance. Majority of the time I feel safe. I experience vigilance and even fear when I feel threat- at night, a dodgy area, not many people around, or a man/men who is targeting me. I’m not convinced that level of vigilance is more than my two sons, who are much more likely to encounter random violence and robbery and be targeted for that. That’s the stranger danger stuff.

Where I think it branches off is fear within the home or within sexual relationships. I think women are much more vulnerable then than men.

I’m not saying that to be smug but as balance. I recognise that for some women they do live with permanent hyper vigilance when outside and that must be grim. But I’m not convinced the majority do, or if it’s helpful to focus on in this type of discussion.

I think it still needed to be said. Of course its not all women and not all the time - but its a real consideration that means so many women routinely curtail their activities or watch what they say, in public and in private. Wasn't there a whole discussion about 'man whispering' on another thread.

The joy of being post menopausal is I rarely get harrassed or bothered now, so I don't suffer constant vigilance either. Then again I became so used to avoiding dangerous situations and scanning my surroundings when I was younger that most of my routine actions (eg not walking with hands in pockets / holding keys in hand etc) are almost unconscious now. Consider myself fortunate to have somehow avoided male violence mostly by blind luck or running away.

 

[spring-peeper]

Ten years ago, my friend was brutally raped. She posted her story on facebook. In my eyes, she is a hero.

To avoid triggering someone, I shall make sure that it would be your choice to read about it.

10 years! It's hard to imagine looking back on how much time has passed, but I still remember it so vividly like it was yesterday. It is unfortunately something that can never be forgotten, as it is now a part of me. I've come to accept this event as a make-or-break moment of my life, and I truly think I have made it. Many people over the years have approached me with admiration, respect, and love for what I have been through. I was only 19 years of age when it happened, a child still in the eyes of most. And it was not without trials and tribulations, but I was able to get through with the incredible amount of support from my family and my many friends from near and far.

Over the past 10 years, I look back at what I've been fortunate enough to accomplish. I graduated with Honours from Algonquin College and Queen's University. I've been fortunate to now have a great job and volunteer in my community. I've been able to travel to many beautiful countries. I've fulfilled one of my dreams of playing in a grade 1 pipe band, and met and played with some of my musical idols. I've met so many amazing people through music, which is a love many of us share, the list could go on. But most importantly, I have been and continue to live, love, and be loved. Living with no regrets as I'm so thankful that I can continue to experience this strange thing we call "life" with you all. Your life does not end, it continues, even with the detour in the road.

Sexual assault is still an uncomfortable topic for most, but like anything that is unsettling, it needs to be addressed and acknowledged. Still too many victims hide behind shame, self-doubt, and blame themselves for what has happened to them. I say to anyone who has experienced it, do not be afraid to speak out! Lean on those closest to you, as they will be your rock during your healing process. I am more than willing to be a listening ear if you want to get something off your chest. Do not be afraid to tell your story to the police or the courts. Many resources are available to help you. Put your trust in those who want to do good things and restore a sense of peace, not only for the community, but for yourself.
I thank those who have been my support. And for those of you who didn't know before..

Update: 'I was scared for my life,' says woman who fought off accused killer

The scars on her hands serve as a constant reminder of the day she came face to face with Marc Leduc — the man now accused of killing two Ottawa women — and survive…

ottawacitizen.com

Three months after the sex attack, Leduc, 58, was charged with first-degree murder in the 2011 slaying of Leanne Lawson and the 2008 slaying of Pamela Kosmack. It’s alleged DNA recovered from the sexual assault linked him to the homicide investigations. He is awaiting trial on the murder charges.

 

[cesare]

Ten years ago, my friend was brutally raped. She posted her story on facebook. In my eyes, she is a hero.

To avoid triggering someone, I shall make sure that it would be your choice to read about it.

I'm so sorry that this brutal rape was carried out on your friend

 

[spring-peeper]

One thing was was omitted was the creature was the custodian of her building. He had her key.

She is a lovely soul. I always felt love from being near her.
We worked at a coffee shop (Tim Hortons). I was the baker and she ate breakfast before her shift. I would always make sure that her favourite muffins were fresh out of the oven for her.

I remember hearing about the rape. Her facebook page was full of "stay strong @@@.

As horrible as the ordeal was, the rape is not the end of your life. Below is her message to other victims.

"Sexual assault is still an uncomfortable topic for most, but like anything that is unsettling, it needs to be addressed and acknowledged. Still too many victims hide behind shame, self-doubt, and blame themselves for what has happened to them. I say to anyone who has experienced it, do not be afraid to speak out! Lean on those closest to you, as they will be your rock during your healing process. I am more than willing to be a listening ear if you want to get something off your chest. Do not be afraid to tell your story to the police or the courts. Many resources are available to help you. Put your trust in those who want to do good things and restore a sense of peace, not only for the community, but for yourself.
I thank those who have been my support. And for those of you who didn't know before.."

 

[bluescreen]

One thing was was omitted was the creature was the custodian of her building. He had her key.

What a horrific ordeal. What a brave woman.
And what an appalling abuse of trust by Leduc.

So sorry your friend lives with this memory.

 

[izz]

So many things to say spring-peeper, she is undoubtedly a total hero, for surviving it and its aftermath, for fighting back and for winning. and for, every day, living with the memory. I'm genuinely glad she's been able to achieve things she's proud of and wish her absolutely the very best for her future.

 

[Dystopiary]

Ten years ago, my friend was brutally raped. She posted her story on facebook. In my eyes, she is a hero.

To avoid triggering someone, I shall make sure that it would be your choice to read about it.

Update: 'I was scared for my life,' says woman who fought off accused killer

The scars on her hands serve as a constant reminder of the day she came face to face with Marc Leduc — the man now accused of killing two Ottawa women — and survive…

ottawacitizen.com

I'm so sorry your friend was put through such a horrific experience.

 

[friendofdorothy]

horrific story from Rachael Watts who as a child survived a abduction, rape, strangulation and being left for dead on a cold febuary night by a serial killer. She talks about the attack and what has happened since, about the justice system also traumatised her and how it still affects her now. BBC Radio 4 - Woman's Hour, Rachael Watts, Danielle De Niese, Royal race row

Can we please not talk about the murderer who did this to her please. He didn't admit it at the trial (but there was lots physical evidence) and he tried to sue the police for wrongful arrest and regularly applied for parole. He finally confessed in 2018 and Rachael is only speaking publically now he is dead. He had already murdered, been tried and aquitted of two other girls in the same horrible way a few years before he attacked Rachael. Those girls called the 'babes in the wood' by the press, were Karen Hadaway and Nicola Fellows - remember their names instead please.

Some one is raising money to build her a garden that she can enjoy.

Donate to Support Rachael - childhood abduction survivor, organized by Eileen Fairweather

Rachael’s healing garden Rachael Watts’s enormous courage as … Eileen Fairweather needs your support for Support Rachael - childhood abduction survivor

www.gofundme.com

Rachael is a proud, stoical person and has found it hard to obtain the help she needs and deserves. Now 40, she has developed agoraphobia – a profound terror of the outdoors – and been diagnosed with Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, acute anxiety and agonising Fibromyalgia (sometimes linked to stress). But she has been turned down for disability benefits and received little therapeutic support.

and turned down for benefits ffs

 

[Sue]

I heard that, friendofdorothy. Heartbreaking. She was also a lot more philosophical about it than I think I'd be.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Some one is raising money to build her a garden that she can enjoy.

Donate to Support Rachael - childhood abduction survivor, organized by Eileen Fairweather

Rachael’s healing garden Rachael Watts’s enormous courage as … Eileen Fairweather needs your support for Support Rachael - childhood abduction survivor

www.gofundme.com

and turned down for benefits ffs

Raised £24,745 so far.

 

[Sue]

Watching this. Don't think its findings will be a surprise to most (any?) women on here. Might be interesting for the men to watch though.

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/undercover-sexual-harassment-the-truth