Feminism and violence again women

[Fozzie Bear]

So, I wonder if the Jacqueline Rose piece covers some similar ground to the piece linked to by Fozzie Bear, both point to the gap between a fantasy of masculinity and the reality, and violence filling some of that gap.

That sounds like the kind of thing I would post a link to but I can't find it now. Possibly it was the Andrew Tate podcast Hope Not Hate did?

There is another dimension to masculinity which is "heroism". So men feel that they have to show up and fix things / provide solutions and be the hero. The do-er.

That is not always the best approach to things. And it certainly isn't the best approach to this thread.

 

[cesare]

That sounds like the kind of thing I would post a link to but I can't find it now. Possibly it was the Andrew Tate podcast Hope Not Hate did?

There is another dimension to masculinity which is "heroism". So men feel that they have to show up and fix things / provide solutions and be the hero. The do-er.

That is not always the best approach to things. And it certainly isn't the best approach to this thread.

I read the link that you posted on the article about the "Roosh" PUA, was that it?

ETA link to post: Feminism and violence again women

 

[Sue]

Thought this might be of interest.

Calling all men: this is what we can do to help women feel safe exercising in the dark | Chris Boardman

We have to break the cycle of misogyny that makes women feel at risk: This Girl Can’s guide sets out steps you can take, says Chris Boardman of Sport England

www.theguardian.com

 

[Red Cat]

That sounds like the kind of thing I would post a link to but I can't find it now. Possibly it was the Andrew Tate podcast Hope Not Hate did?

There is another dimension to masculinity which is "heroism". So men feel that they have to show up and fix things / provide solutions and be the hero. The do-er.

That is not always the best approach to things. And it certainly isn't the best approach to this thread.

I copied the link but forgot to paste. Here it is The Fascist Cult of Masculinity

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Thanks cesare and Red Cat

It would be good if some of the men on this thread could read those. There were some comments upthread about men with daughters having an increased awareness of what women face and that's certainly true (it was for me).

That's OK but the critical issue here is having sons. Especially with the intensity of experiences and role models that are now available to them online.

 

[story]

A vile wretch with no redeeming features, an ignoble savage. A couple of the most shocking posts I've seen on here, and that's up against some stiff competition

I wrote that in anger and with sarcasm.

 

[story]

bmd

I get that you feel that you’re engaging in good faith. And I understand why you feel really defensive around this fear that you might be more like your dad than you want to be. But if you really do want to engage with this discussion you’re going to have to deal with your own feelings yourself and not bring them here as an attack on the debate. Right now you're blaming the women on here and their responses for your feelings of being challenged at a really deep level.

Rather than telling women they’re too angry or not understanding men, maybe you can ask some men about what it felt like to be challenged about their inherent misogyny and how they navigated that. There have been some threads started to try to discuss the male experience of the patriarchy but for some reason they’ve all petered out.

I could say “I wonder why...” but actually I reckon it’s exactly because men find it really fucking difficult to talk about this stuff. And that’s part of the problem. Women ask men to think and talk about misogyny the patriarchy violence against women to each other and those conversations just don’t seem to gain traction.

I get it. It’s confusing to try to understand the lived experience of another gender or sex, and it’s really hard to look at the system that one lives within. That’s really challenging even before you get to the bit that says “men are inherently problematic by virtue of this thing that you can’t change about yourself”.

Have you read the posts David Clapson made about men having a rape gene and asking how men get erect when raping? I’m not going to tag him or quote it because jesus fucking Christ. Those post were made in and around your recent posts here and it’s possible that yours got some of the shade cast by his posts. As a suggestion, go back and read them and see what your feelings and opinions are about what he wrote. If you don’t find them ignorant outrageous and alarming you need to think about why, and also think about what they illustrate and demonstrate about misogyny and the roots of violence against women.


With the usual NAMNAW caveats, men seem to get stuck on needing women to spoonfeed them the argument and discussion point by point from the most basic stuff, and then get angry and frustrated when women refuse to do so. Women are tired of doing this and getting nowhere. Even if that goes well with this man, and the next, there will always always be another man who needs this most basic introduction, or who refuses to do the work, or just won’t accept it, or gives up because it’s too hard or.... So (possibly) every single woman posting and reading this has had years and years of not only living under the cosh of the patriarchy but also many years of repeatedly trying to talk to men about this stuff. Men insist on only discussing it on their own terms, and only when they want to.


If you genuinely want to engage with this I’d suggest that when something makes you feel uncomfortable or angry, rather than going on the offence you take a step back and ask yourself - or even in a post - “why has this made me feel so uncomfortable?”

I’m sorry if this seems patronising. It probably is patronising. I don’t mean it to be but it looks as if you really do need to go back to the beginning and start from scratch with tackling your internal structures with this stuff.

 

[story]

It might be an idea for men to look for books on feminism for men. Feminism books are read by men from the male perspective and that can kick up problems. Men need to either work to set aside their male perspective when reading these books and-or be prepared to find themselves confused, in disagreement and made to feel deeply uncomfortable.

Not all women who read feminist books agree with all feminist thinking. There’s plenty of disagreement and debate within feminism. But even if they’re not in agreement with what they read, chances are they’ll understand that perspective (Dworkin and the SCUM manifesto being case in point). Conversely, when men disagree with a feminist argument they don’t seem to be able to understand the perspective.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

It might be an idea for men to look for books on feminism for men. Feminism books are read by men from the male perspective and that can kick up problems. Men need to either work to set aside their male perspective when reading these books and-or be prepared to find themselves confused, in disagreement and made to feel deeply uncomfortable.

Not all women who read feminist books agree with all feminist thinking. There’s plenty of disagreement and debate within feminism. But even if they’re not in agreement with what they read, chances are they’ll understand that perspective (Dworkin and the SCUM manifesto being case in point). Conversely, when men disagree with a feminist argument they don’t seem to be able to understand the perspective.

I think men should read Dworkin and Solanas as they do have an uncompromising perspective which is worth checking out. Part of the process has to be listening to women, after all.

The main feminst book by a man that comes to mind for me is John Stoltenberg's Refusing to be a man: essasys on sex and justice which is also pretty uncompromising (he was Dworkin's partner).

Given that several men here seem incapable of reading this actual thread, I do wonder how many of them will read books about this issue?

ETA also I don't want to be the "pick me" / "nice" guy on this thread. I like reading books. It has been suggeted quite strongly in the past that I do less reading of books about social justice and more housework. Nobody is perfect and I absolutely am not.

 

[David Clapson]

story You didn't try to correct anything in my posts. If they're so wrong it should be easy for you. Maybe they're not wrong, and instead of using your internet connection to write nonsense you should be educating yourself? There are lots of research papers about sexual arousal of rapists and the genetics of sexual violence against women.

You've made one basic, stupid, probably deliberate error, which is to say that by explaining the urge to rape I'm trying to justify it. I'm not. Note that I've bracketed rape with killing as survival mechanisms. I'm not trying to justify murder either. But you want to pretend that I'm trying to justify rape because you'd rather have a bunfight than a reasoned, intelligent discussion. Get your 'noble savage' LOLs and your likes! You've earned them!

Have a shitty day, you deserve it.

 

[weepiper]

This is what happens every single time women try to talk about this amongst ourselves.

 

[David Clapson]

This is what happens every single time women try to talk about this amongst ourselves.

Contributions from men were invited at the top of the thread. If you want a women only discussion, organise one.

 

[izz]

This is what happens every single time women try to talk about this amongst ourselves.

Yup.

Every. Single. Fucking. Time.

 

[David Clapson]

So @b, @da

Christ on a fucking bike. I don't even know where to start with this. Actually I do but i just don't have the fucking energy right now.

David Clapson, just don't interact with women like ever. I'm actually completely serious about that.

Oh how amusing. Plenty of likes for you too, but no attempt to counter what I posted. Never mind, you're busted...you've made it obvious you want a LOL bunfight. Good for you.

 

[Santino]

Oh how amusing. Plenty of likes for you too, but no attempt to counter what I posted. Never mind, you're busted...you've made it obvious you want a LOL bunfight. Good for you.

I think there is something very wrong inside of you.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Oh how amusing. Plenty of likes for you too, but no attempt to counter what I posted. Never mind, you're busted...you've made it obvious you want a LOL bunfight. Good for you.

Why are there no likes for me when my aggressive posts about rape on a thread about violence against women are obviousy so right?!

 

[Fozzie Bear]

And here was me worrying about not doing enough of the hoovering, HTH.

 

[Pickman's model]

story You didn't try to correct anything in my posts. If they're so wrong it should be easy for you. Maybe they're not wrong, and instead of using your internet connection to write nonsense you should be educating yourself? There are lots of research papers about sexual arousal of rapists and the genetics of sexual violence against women.

You've made one basic, stupid, probably deliberate error, which is to say that by explaining the urge to rape I'm trying to justify it. I'm not. Note that I've bracketed rape with killing as survival mechanisms. I'm not trying to justify murder either. But you want to pretend that I'm trying to justify rape because you'd rather have a bunfight than a reasoned, intelligent discussion. Get your 'noble savage' LOLs and your likes! You've earned them!

Have a shitty day, you deserve it.

go back and read my reply to you, where i point out that your belief in the efficacy of the state to prevent rape is utter shit. i don't believe you've researched this 'rape gene' to the extent you suggest, and reliance on a number of research papers is a variant on millions of pms of support, it doesn't in fact prove anything. you bring in medieval europe on the basis of er no evidence whatsoever, any assertion you make about the incidence of rape seems to me just that, an assertion, because i don't believe there's any evidence to support a case for that - it's a load of bollocks, if you'll pardon the phrase. you say

Don't know whether this has been covered as I haven't read the thread, but there must be a strong male instinct to rape, and there always has been. In unpoliced communities there's a high incidence of rape of women and children, e.g anywhere in Europe in the middle ages, or in modern communities untouched by the modern world, e.g. the Pitcairn Islands Pitcairn Islands - Wikipedia .

which is really fucking weird - on the one hand there's a strong male instinct to rape, on the other only governments can mitigate this. now, that's obvious nonsense as i've said. you then went on to say that bodies of men controlled by men in wartime if encouraged by the dogma of their army go on to rape. you can't have it both ways, imo, that the most disciplined bodies of the state simultaneously prevent rape and carry it out. you have to come down on one side of that - but you don't. because you're all over the shop, and your assertion there's a male instinct to rape is to me simply justification for rape, no ifs, no buts.

 

[Pickman's model]

And here was me worrying about not doing enough of the hoovering, HTH.

there's enough of a mess being made by the nefandous David Clapson that your cleaning skills will be needed here

 

[weepiper]

Contributions from men were invited at the top of the thread. If you want a women only discussion, organise one.

I can't really be arsed engaging with you tbh but we already do. Do you really think we're not talking about this stuff in private where men can't just barge in and piss all over it with their ignorant opinions? Because we are. Contributions were invited. Not aggressive insistence on having everything explained to individual male personal satisfaction. But whatevs tbh, well done any woman who can actually be fucked with banging her head off the wall here.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think there is something very wrong inside of you.

and unfortunately he's letting it out

 

[bimble]

Just get off the internet David Clapson.

Every time you come here you end up being an utter arsehole to a lot of women you've never met.
You have no idea why that keeps happening and you're not capable of being curious about it.
Your contributions are not worth engaging with in any serious way thats why its not happening.

Maybe you enjoy typing 'fuck off' messages to women on threads about sexual violence.
If not do yourself and everyone else a favour and just stop. Log off.

 

[David Clapson]

Alternatively you could grow up and learn to read? Or be added to my ignore list, with a number of others? The latter would be quite a timesaver.

 

[bimble]

Alternatively you could grow up and learn to read? Or be added to my ignore list, with a number of others? The latter would be quite a timesaver.

You promised to put me on your ignore list ages ago .

 

[Pickman's model]

Alternatively you could grow up and learn to read? Or be added to my ignore list, with a number of others? The latter would be quite a timesaver.

it's a mark of a thick wanker to ask someone to 'grow up and learn to read' on a bulletin board where there's 100% literacy

 

[Sue]

Oh how amusing. Plenty of likes for you too, but no attempt to counter what I posted. Never mind, you're busted...you've made it obvious you want a LOL bunfight. Good for you.

Genuine question. Do you ever reflect on the responses you get to your posts and wonder why you get the reactions you do? If you don't, it might be a valuable exercise?

 

[Elpenor]

Alternatively you could grow up and learn to read? Or be added to my ignore list, with a number of others? The latter would be quite a timesaver.

I am pretty sure you’re on a few more ignore lists than you were before you first posted on this thread

 

[friendofdorothy]

For those who cant be arsed reading the thread I'm re posting some earlier posts:

So, this exists specifically for sexual violence, but as well as rape culture we have an “male violence culture” too:
View attachment 318319
and I think a lot of the bottom of the pyramid stuff includes (as well as the more obvious IPV red flag stuff) all that performative masculine bollocks like Will Smith at the Oscars, and the conversations that defended his role in fighting her battles. Men feel obliged to express dominance, and that’s tied up in masculine conformity. I see it all the time, year after year, at school - in fact, that’s totally the bottom of the pyramid: “mum cussing being a lazy provocation for a fight”.

 

[friendofdorothy]

more from earlier in the thread to get this discussion back on track

I listened to this the other day. It's nothing amazing, just ordinary blokes having conversations and reflecting upon their own behaviour and language.

It's quite good when they're discussing how important (but not always easy) it is to speak up if/when a male friend says something out of order to a woman. One bloke talks about, "calling in", as opposed to, "calling out", his friends. It seemed like a good approach to take.

Am I That Guy? - BBC Sounds

An exploration of men’s violence against women, with Scottish writer Alistair Heather

www.bbc.co.uk

The thing is we don't really know how many men commit rape. You certainly can't go by convictions, as less than half of cases that go to court result in convictions. You can't go by charges, as fewer than 6% of those reported result in charges. And you certainly can't go by reported figures, as most people don't ever report it. Rape Crisis says 5 out of 6 victims don't. That's a huge number of men getting away with it.

And you can't go by men's self-perception, since so many don't even recognise their behaviour as rape. But if you ask women, you'd find a shocking number of them have experienced it. But you'd have to conduct a truly anonymous survey to get any sort of picture, as it's not information that many people are going to volunteer even to close friends or partners. Rape Crisis reckons about 5 million in the UK. Add to that the fact that some of those 5 million women will have suffered many times at the hands of one man or more than one man.

And add to that all the 'lesser' offences on that sexual domination pyramid at the bottom of which lies an unexpressed and unacknowledged feeling of entitlement.

Rape, sexual assault and child sexual abuse statistics

Want to know how many people are raped, sexually abused or sexually assaulted? We have key statistics from trusted sources showing the scale of the problem.

rapecrisis.org.uk

 

[friendofdorothy]

Thought this might be of interest.

Calling all men: this is what we can do to help women feel safe exercising in the dark | Chris Boardman

We have to break the cycle of misogyny that makes women feel at risk: This Girl Can’s guide sets out steps you can take, says Chris Boardman of Sport England

www.theguardian.com

yes that is interesting with some good advice for men if they want to be non threatening. When talking to some younger women they mentioned harassment while exercising.

She listed to me all the things that would stop her, as a woman, using the former railway line we were strolling along to exercise after dark. Her fears, it turned out, were all to do with the behaviour of the half of the population who are men. Her barrier to exercise was people like me.

Never make comments, even if you think it’s a compliment. It’s intimidating to a woman on her own. Stay quiet. If you see friends or family members making disrespectful comments to a woman, challenge them and explain why it’s not OK. We need to break the cycle of misogyny that contributes to women feeling unsafe. Show younger men what it looks like to listen to women. Talk to them about what harassment is. Help them understand why a comment they think is harmless may terrorise a woman. If you notice a woman being harassed, show your support – it can be as simple as standing between her and the harasser.