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Feminism and violence again women

I have gone away from this thread to read. I started with Jacqueline Rose:

Introduction: On Violence and On Violence Against Women

This book is not exhaustive. It makes no claim to cover violence in all its forms or violence everywhere. Its focus is mainly on male violence. But it is central to my argument that the masculinity enjoined on all men, and paraded by so many, is a fraud. Throughout, I take my distance from radical feminism, notably of the influential school of Catharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin, which sees violence as the unadulterated and never-failing expression of male sexuality and power, a self-defeating argument if ever there was one (if true, then men will rule the world for ever). Instead of which, it is crucial for me that, even while calling out masculinity in its worst guise, we allow to individual men the potential gap between maleness and the infinite complexity of the human mind. How can we as feminists make that gap the beating heart of women’s fight against oppression, against the stultifying ideology of what women are meant to be, and not allow the same internal breathing space to men? Surely it is on the ability of all of us to stop, think and reject the most deadly requisite behaviours that our chance of a better world relies? No man comfortably possesses masculinity (any more than, other than by killing, one person is in total possession of anyone else). Indeed such mastery is the very delusion which underpins the deranged and most highly prized version of masculinity on offer. Prowess is a lie, as every inch of mortal flesh bears witness. But like all lies, in order to be believed, it has to be endlessly repeated.

I think this says exactly what I think much more eloquently than I ever could. I will keep trying. I will keep failing.
 
bmd said:
I have gone away from this thread to read. I started with Jacqueline Rose:

Introduction: On Violence and On Violence Against Women

This book is not exhaustive. It makes no claim to cover violence in all its forms or violence everywhere. Its focus is mainly on male violence. But it is central to my argument that the masculinity enjoined on all men, and paraded by so many, is a fraud. Throughout, I take my distance from radical feminism, notably of the influential school of Catharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin, which sees violence as the unadulterated and never-failing expression of male sexuality and power, a self-defeating argument if ever there was one (if true, then men will rule the world for ever). Instead of which, it is crucial for me that, even while calling out masculinity in its worst guise, we allow to individual men the potential gap between maleness and the infinite complexity of the human mind. How can we as feminists make that gap the beating heart of women’s fight against oppression, against the stultifying ideology of what women are meant to be, and not allow the same internal breathing space to men? Surely it is on the ability of all of us to stop, think and reject the most deadly requisite behaviours that our chance of a better world relies? No man comfortably possesses masculinity (any more than, other than by killing, one person is in total possession of anyone else). Indeed such mastery is the very delusion which underpins the deranged and most highly prized version of masculinity on offer. Prowess is a lie, as every inch of mortal flesh bears witness. But like all lies, in order to be believed, it has to be endlessly repeated.

I think this says exactly what I think much more eloquently than I ever could. I will keep trying. I will keep failing.
Click to expand...
Is this "concerned trolling"? Fucks sake, wtf.

This thread's going to Dworkin black hole, again ffs
 
Don't know whether this has been covered as I haven't read the thread, but there must be a strong male instinct to rape, and there always has been. In unpoliced communities there's a high incidence of rape of women and children, e.g anywhere in Europe in the middle ages, or in modern communities untouched by the modern world, e.g. the Pitcairn Islands Pitcairn Islands - Wikipedia .

In war it seems the majority of men rape if they are encouraged to by the dogma of their army, e.g. the Myanmar army in Rohingya villages or Russians in WW2 Germany, or many other examples documented here Our Bodies, Their Battlefield by Christina Lamb review – the eternal war against women

The perplexing thing is that many of the men are sexually aroused. Occasionally they're using drugs or raping with an object, but a lot of them are using their erect penis with someone who is terrified, in pain, crying and begging them to stop. How can they have an erection in this scenario? Or when they're doing it to their own children? What proportion of men are able to do this?
 
cesare said:
A female answers you with a challenge about what you've posted plus Dworkin - and your response is to question whether I know what I'm talking about. Why do you think that's a good look?
Click to expand...

Wtf are you on about? I thought you were a bloke tbh. No idea of your gender. I also never read anything on the thread since this morning before I posted that. Sorry if that doesn't fit with your ideas of whatever but that's all I've got. I have never read Dworkin. I have never read any feminist text. Rose is my first. I am finding it very interesting just as a book but that part really chimed with me. I thought it would be interesting to the thread to illustrate what I was trying to say and perhaps, god forgive me, lift a little of the cunthood bestowed on me here.

eta: about Dworkin specifically, it sounds like she has very concrete ideas of men. Cool. I don't agree with her but then all I know of her work is that paragraph.

I had decided not to engage with the responses on the thread because I was convinced that the feeding frenzy had begun. That time on a thread here when people just put the boot in to show off their credentials. It seemed pointless to engage but I like you and when I saw that you had quoted me I thought I'd see what you had said. Big fucking mistake.

Lastly, let's say I had put that as a reposte to your Dworkin post which I still haven't read and I never did that but you do you. Let's say that I had, what would be wrong with responding in exactly the same way as you? If you were using Dworkin and I was using Rose, why am I a troll?
 
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David Clapson said:
Don't know whether this has been covered as I haven't read the thread, but there must be a strong male instinct to rape, and there always has been. In unpoliced communities there's a high incidence of rape of women and children, e.g anywhere in Europe in the middle ages, or in modern communities untouched by the modern world, e.g. the Pitcairn Islands Pitcairn Islands - Wikipedia .

In war it seems the majority of men rape if they are encouraged to by the dogma of their army, e.g. the Myanmar army in Rohingya villages or Russians in WW2 Germany, or many other examples documented here Our Bodies, Their Battlefield by Christina Lamb review – the eternal war against women

The perplexing thing is that many of the men are sexually aroused. Occasionally they're using drugs or raping with an object, but a lot of them are using their erect penis with someone who is terrified, in pain, crying and begging them to stop. How can they have an erection in this scenario? Or when they're doing it to their own children? What proportion of men are able to do this?
Click to expand...
Read the fucking thread.
 
David Clapson said:
Don't know whether this has been covered as I haven't read the thread, but there must be a strong male instinct to rape, and there always has been. In unpoliced communities there's a high incidence of rape of women and children, e.g anywhere in Europe in the middle ages, or in modern communities untouched by the modern world, e.g. the Pitcairn Islands Pitcairn Islands - Wikipedia .

In war it seems the majority of men rape if they are encouraged to by the dogma of their army, e.g. the Myanmar army in Rohingya villages or Russians in WW2 Germany, or many other examples documented here Our Bodies, Their Battlefield by Christina Lamb review – the eternal war against women

The perplexing thing is that many of the men are sexually aroused. Occasionally they're using drugs or raping with an object, but a lot of them are using their erect penis with someone who is terrified, in pain, crying and begging them to stop. How can they have an erection in this scenario? Or when they're doing it to their own children? What proportion of men are able to do this?
Click to expand...
In unpoliced communities... barely a week goes by without some cop or other being charged with rape or some other sexual offence. I'm not sure where you get the idea the police prevent rape, it's not something anyone who thought about the matter would suggest.
 
mojo pixy said:
Better than not reading it at all. Baby steps and that.
Click to expand...
Er, thanks.

My fear was that reading it would make me lose all faith in urban (which wouldn't take much). The important threads are swamped by people who IRL I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. This place has been taken over by people who think trolling is 'so urban', and wrecking threads like this is the highlight of their day.
 
bmd said:
I have gone away from this thread to read. I started with Jacqueline Rose:

Introduction: On Violence and On Violence Against Women

This book is not exhaustive. It makes no claim to cover violence in all its forms or violence everywhere. Its focus is mainly on male violence. But it is central to my argument that the masculinity enjoined on all men, and paraded by so many, is a fraud. Throughout, I take my distance from radical feminism, notably of the influential school of Catharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin, which sees violence as the unadulterated and never-failing expression of male sexuality and power, a self-defeating argument if ever there was one (if true, then men will rule the world for ever). Instead of which, it is crucial for me that, even while calling out masculinity in its worst guise, we allow to individual men the potential gap between maleness and the infinite complexity of the human mind. How can we as feminists make that gap the beating heart of women’s fight against oppression, against the stultifying ideology of what women are meant to be, and not allow the same internal breathing space to men? Surely it is on the ability of all of us to stop, think and reject the most deadly requisite behaviours that our chance of a better world relies? No man comfortably possesses masculinity (any more than, other than by killing, one person is in total possession of anyone else). Indeed such mastery is the very delusion which underpins the deranged and most highly prized version of masculinity on offer. Prowess is a lie, as every inch of mortal flesh bears witness. But like all lies, in order to be believed, it has to be endlessly repeated.

I think this says exactly what I think much more eloquently than I ever could. I will keep trying. I will keep failing.
Click to expand...
So you have spent an hour or two reading an introductory book. Come back when you have finished it, considered it and your own behaviour, discussed it with your daughters and your male friends. Til then please do me the courtesy of shutting the fuck up.
 
Regarding Dworkin , surprised she was brought up by bmd who said he hadn't read her. Odd to name check a writer you know little about.

I read her doorstep of a book 'Rape' 40 years ago, and my recollection is it was an uncomfortable read, even if I wouldn't agree with all she wrote, her anger is / was justified.

NAM are rapists but we live in a culture that glorifies rape and excuses male perpetrators
 
If I was the type of person that tried to heard cats ( which I am) I’d respectfully, but strongly, suggest that all we men fuck off from posting on this thread for a couple of days at least.

Someone else could start a sister (sic) thread if they feel really hurt by this.
 
Thora said:
The last couple of pages of this thread is truly a ringing endorsement of men 🤣
Click to expand...
Thanks Thora. They are here to quote bits of books at us they don't yet understand and tell us we're not teaching them feminism right. 🤬 Doing the on line equivalent of talking over us and down to us. Any minute now one will be along to tell us to cheer up love or tell us we have no sense of humour...
 
I don't really understand the ferocity of the reply to bmd here. He quoted a book that you may or may not find interesting. What is it that you disliked so much about what he quoted?
 
If ever a post deserved a facepalm it’s gotta be this
David Clapson said:
I could tell from the post above mine that a lot of the thread is distinctly missable. I'll read it when I'm bored.
Click to expand...
Don’t bother David, no one gaf about your views on violence towards women.

bmd on the other hand has clearly trying to engage in good faith and with a listening ear. Yes, maybe he could read the entire thread. But it’s also okay to engage and contribute and ask questions, especially if you want to learn.
 
Edie said:
If ever a post deserved a facepalm it’s gotta be this

Don’t bother David, no one gaf about your views on violence towards women.
Click to expand...
Fuck off to you too.

To understand why men rape we should consider the evolutionary and historical arguments, which you touched on with your post about Genghis Khan. When we limit discussions to contemporary cultural/societal issues, lots of men object and we get lots of NAM remarks,. If we explained that rape used to be a vital survival tool and that there may be a rape gene, perhaps more men would understand the problem?

Before nation states, humans lived in villages and survived on subsistence farming. If a village was good at farming, more children would survive and more land would be farmed. This was an existential threat to other villages in the area. So the men of fighting age would attack a neighbouring village, kidnap the children and the women of childbearing age, and kill everyone else. The women would be raped so that the population grew. The most successful males were the ones who were best at killling and raping. Genghis Khan took this to its logical conclusion. Our species evolved by rewarding rape. So it's been in our DNA for countless generations. There may be a rape gene. We don't know yet. Research is in its early days Science | AAAS

If rape is a survival skill which has been bred into men, the feminist view that 'all men are rapists' is hard to counter. Lots of men would strongly object to that. Maybe one answer would be more detail about Genghis Khan in history and science lessons?

Men also argue that they would never commit rape, therefore everything feminists say is so unfair, etc., but perhaps they would accept that there have always been 'good' men who have been forced to rape? Systematic rape was used in ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. Women would be raped then imprisoned until they'd given birth. Perhaps many of the rapists considered themselves to be decent family men, but nationalists persuaded them their tribe was at risk of being wiped out, then the fighing started, and it became so savage that they really believed their tribe's survival was threatened, so they did their 'duty'. This has happened countless times in modern and ancient history.

Men have even been forced by torture to rape their daughters, even their mothers. This happened in Argentina under the Galtieri regime. If you torture a man with electric shocks until he fears he is about to die, then tell him he can save himself by raping his daughter or his mother, he does it. Is that evidence that any man, however good, is capable of rape if his survival instinct is provoked?
 
So @b, @da
David Clapson said:
Fuck off to you too.

To understand why men rape we should consider the evolutionary and historical arguments, which you touched on with your post about Genghis Khan. When we limit discussions to contemporary cultural/societal issues, lots of men object and we get lots of NAM remarks,. If we explained that rape used to be a vital survival tool and that there may be a rape gene, perhaps more men would understand the problem?

Before nation states, humans lived in villages and survived on subsistence farming. If a village was good at farming, more children would survive and more land would be farmed. This was an existential threat to other villages in the area. So the men of fighting age would attack a neighbouring village, kidnap the children and the women of childbearing age, and kill everyone else. The women would be raped so that the population grew. The most successful males were the ones who were best at killling and raping. Genghis Khan took this to its logical conclusion. Our species evolved by rewarding rape. So it's been in our DNA for countless generations. There may be a rape gene. We don't know yet. Research is in its early days Science | AAAS

If rape is a survival skill which has been bred into men, the feminist view that 'all men are rapists' is hard to counter. Lots of men would strongly object to that. Maybe one answer would be more detail about Genghis Khan in history and science lessons?

Men also argue that they would never commit rape, therefore everything feminists say is so unfair, etc., but perhaps they would accept that there have always been 'good' men who have been forced to rape? Systematic rape was used in ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. Women would be raped then imprisoned until they'd given birth. Perhaps many of the rapists considered themselves to be decent family men, but nationalists persuaded them their tribe was at risk of being wiped out, then the fighing started, and it became so savage that they really believed their tribe's survival was threatened, so they did their 'duty'. This has happened countless times in modern and ancient history.

Men have even been forced by torture to rape their daughters, even their mothers. This happened in Argentina under the Galtieri regime. If you torture a man with electric shocks until he fears he is about to die, then tell him he can save himself by raping his daughter or his mother, he does it. Is that evidence that any man, however good, is capable of rape if his survival instinct is provoked?
Click to expand...
Christ on a fucking bike. I don't even know where to start with this. Actually I do but i just don't have the fucking energy right now.

David Clapson, just don't interact with women like ever. I'm actually completely serious about that.
 
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