Feminism and violence again women

[kalidarkone]

bmd as you have said you wish to engage with women around this topic then as Sweet FA suggests read the thread!

Also imo your last post is coming across into the not all men camp...when this thread is about systemic misogyny and violence and how that plays out individually and impacts women.

The impact of misogyny and violence on men has been/ is discussed on other threads about that. So it might be worth seeking out those specific threads.

 

[Sue]

Also, it sounds you're asking women how to stop men raping and murdering them - sorry if I've misunderstood.

I am asking exactly that.

Men could just you know stop raping and murdering women?

Seriously though wtf?

 

[Sweet FA]

As kali says bmd, there are other threads that talk about the issues I think you're getting at. I posted about the violence you mentioned earlier on this one: https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/male-experiences-of-patriarchy.364927/

eta and it ended talking about male on male violence.

 

[kalidarkone]

As kali says bmd, there are other threads that talk about the issues I think you're getting at. I posted about the violence you mentioned earlier on this one: https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/male-experiences-of-patriarchy.364927/

eta and it ended talking about male on male violence.

That's the one I was thinking of! Thanks Sweet FA .

 

[friendofdorothy]

Replying to my own post. It has come to this. Let me try again. I will ask my daughters what their experience of unwanted... attention, harassment is always unwanted, attention seems quite benign, what is the word to describe this? Violence is rather shrill for this context. Insidious behaviours? Not sure. Anyway, I will have a conversation with them.

I asked you to narrow it down for me because I do want to have a conversation about All Men. I don't understand the argument that we do not qualify the statement. I want to have a conversation rather than an argument please, friendofdorothy. I named you because I was responding to your comment but, obviously it's for everyone.

I'm tired. Why do I have to have all the answers? If you work with violent men - don't you have any answers?
Violence includes more than murder, and murder is rarely the first offence - have a think about what leads up to it?

 

[bmd]

Well fucking read the thread then man, there's loads of answers to the questions you're asking

Then you could ask your questions based on what women have already told you. Otherwise you might come across like you're a bloke demanding answers from women who've already answered your questions.

Also if that's what you're asking, it's a stupid question.




Dunno what you mean by 'You sound great though. ' If you mean you don't think I'm being sincere, you can fuck off

I think you need to go back to teacher school if this is your style with the men you teach about these issues. Yes, I know you're not a proper teacher.

Read the thread. There are books I could read. I could read what women here have put too. I could but I would like to engage on my terms. I know, sounds like a man doesn't it. I don't know. I think it sounds like me. I build up to stuff. I want to understand what each person actually thinks, not what they've read. What their experiences are. not what they print out here. I feel like when I engage with people in the here and now that that happens.

All men. Not me. Yes, I get it. Not me is what a man would say. I have spent my life feeling guilty and ashamed because those are the things instilled in me. Guilty and ashamed of whatever. So when I'm told I'm like a man who hits women or wolf whistles at them in the street or whatever it is that I'm exactly the same as, I wonder why? How am I? What have I done, exactly? I think back. I zoom in. I look at my behaviour. I know what' it's like to feel afraid. To be a victim of violence. To be a victim of words and deeds. I set out in my life to wipe those things from me. All the isms. I focused mainly on Sexism because my mum didn't want to know me and so I tried harder to please her. I think I did ok. So when you say all of that doesn't matter. That I'm no different. Well, I'm going to have to see your working out, please.

 

[iona]

When I said 'simply men' I meant that men who perpetrate violence against others are not simply men. They are broken in some fundamental ways, imo. So when we lump all men in with this view I think we are doing the Monster label thing again.

This is really black & white and completely ignores all the other shit that isn't Bad Men Raping Women but still makes up part of the problem.

What about a man catcalling women in the street, is he "broken in some fundamental ways"? What about that guy who's just a bit too invasive of personal space, a bit too insistent and won't take no for an answer from the woman he's trying to chat up? What about the man who initiates sex after a date, with a woman who doesn't want to but freezes up and never says no because she's worried about his reaction after she's "led him on", and he never stops to think about proper consent and would be furious at the suggestion that actually, that was rape. Are they all monsters?

What about the men around them who say well yeah Dave's a bit of a perv sometimes but he's harmless, he's just kidding, he was just pissed, he didn't mean anything by it, it's not like he's one of those men who beat their partner to death or go around raping strangers in a dark alley. What about all the men who aren't comfortable with another man's behaviour but choose not to speak up, to avoid an argument or pisstaking or losing mates or creating drama at work? Are they all fundamentally broken? Of course they aren't - they're just people, just men. It doesn't stop all that shit from being part of the problem, though.

 

[Sue]

Read the thread. There are books I could read. I could read what women here have put too. I could but I would like to engage on my terms. I know, sounds like a man doesn't it. I don't know. I think it sounds like me. I build up to stuff. I want to understand what each person actually thinks, not what they've read. What their experiences are. not what they print out here. I feel like when I engage with people in the here and now that that happens.

bmd, you seem to want people restart the discussion because you can't be bothered to read the thread. It feels less 'engaging on your own terms' and more 'me, me, ME' tbh.

 

[weepiper]

Wtf does 'you're not a proper teacher' mean?

 

[kabbes]

I think you need to go back to teacher school if this is your style with the men you teach about these issues. Yes, I know you're not a proper teacher.

Read the thread. There are books I could read. I could read what women here have put too. I could but I would like to engage on my terms. I know, sounds like a man doesn't it. I don't know. I think it sounds like me. I build up to stuff. I want to understand what each person actually thinks, not what they've read. What their experiences are. not what they print out here. I feel like when I engage with people in the here and now that that happens.

All men. Not me. Yes, I get it. Not me is what a man would say. I have spent my life feeling guilty and ashamed because those are the things instilled in me. Guilty and ashamed of whatever. So when I'm told I'm like a man who hits women or wolf whistles at them in the street or whatever it is that I'm exactly the same as, I wonder why? How am I? What have I done, exactly? I think back. I zoom in. I look at my behaviour. I know what' it's like to feel afraid. To be a victim of violence. To be a victim of words and deeds. I set out in my life to wipe those things from me. All the isms. I focused mainly on Sexism because my mum didn't want to know me and so I tried harder to please her. I think I did ok. So when you say all of that doesn't matter. That I'm no different. Well, I'm going to have to see your working out, please.

Don’t look now, but this post exhibits the exact behaviour that you are saying doesn’t apply to you.

 

[Athos]

I think you need to go back to teacher school if this is your style with the men you teach about these issues. Yes, I know you're not a proper teacher.

Read the thread. There are books I could read. I could read what women here have put too. I could but I would like to engage on my terms. I know, sounds like a man doesn't it. I don't know. I think it sounds like me. I build up to stuff. I want to understand what each person actually thinks, not what they've read. What their experiences are. not what they print out here. I feel like when I engage with people in the here and now that that happens.

All men. Not me. Yes, I get it. Not me is what a man would say. I have spent my life feeling guilty and ashamed because those are the things instilled in me. Guilty and ashamed of whatever. So when I'm told I'm like a man who hits women or wolf whistles at them in the street or whatever it is that I'm exactly the same as, I wonder why? How am I? What have I done, exactly? I think back. I zoom in. I look at my behaviour. I know what' it's like to feel afraid. To be a victim of violence. To be a victim of words and deeds. I set out in my life to wipe those things from me. All the isms. I focused mainly on Sexism because my mum didn't want to know me and so I tried harder to please her. I think I did ok. So when you say all of that doesn't matter. That I'm no different. Well, I'm going to have to see your working out, please.

Think of it like a pyramid. The fact that you're not one of the minority of men at the pinnacle e.g. a rapist, doesn't mean you're not one of the very many men at the base. The men who, whether deliberately or not, hold the whole structure up. Who do so through the less extreme examples of misogyny; the sort of things they've been socialised to think of as normal, to the extent they don't even recognise them as misogyny. For instance, expecting women to engage with them on their terms, because they can't be bothered to read what those women have already gone to the effort of explaining.

ETA: When I say 'they', I mean 'we', because I'm sure all men in this society have picked up these ideas to a greater or lesser extent. Rather than get defensive when that's pointed out, maybe we could take it as a reminder to examine our own attitudes and behaviours, to check they align with how we see ourselves/what we say we are/who want to be.

 

[Red Cat]

I think you need to go back to teacher school if this is your style with the men you teach about these issues. Yes, I know you're not a proper teacher.

Read the thread. There are books I could read. I could read what women here have put too. I could but I would like to engage on my terms. I know, sounds like a man doesn't it. I don't know. I think it sounds like me. I build up to stuff. I want to understand what each person actually thinks, not what they've read. What their experiences are. not what they print out here. I feel like when I engage with people in the here and now that that happens.

This is demanding and intrusive. You need an invitation to understand someone, you can't force your way in.

 

[story]

This is really black & white and completely ignores all the other shit that isn't Bad Men Raping Women but still makes up part of the problem.

What about a man catcalling women in the street, is he "broken in some fundamental ways"? What about that guy who's just a bit too invasive of personal space, a bit too insistent and won't take no for an answer from the woman he's trying to chat up? What about the man who initiates sex after a date, with a woman who doesn't want to but freezes up and never says no because she's worried about his reaction after she's "led him on", and he never stops to think about proper consent and would be furious at the suggestion that actually, that was rape. Are they all monsters?

What about the men around them who say well yeah Dave's a bit of a perv sometimes but he's harmless, he's just kidding, he was just pissed, he didn't mean anything by it, it's not like he's one of those men who beat their partner to death or go around raping strangers in a dark alley. What about all the men who aren't comfortable with another man's behaviour but choose not to speak up, to avoid an argument or pisstaking or losing mates or creating drama at work? Are they all fundamentally broken? Of course they aren't - they're just people, just men. It doesn't stop all that shit from being part of the problem, though.

.… the men who talk over or interrupt women when they’re talking, the men who don’t laugh at women‘s jokes but always laugh at men‘s jokes, the men who say “I’m not the problem, I love women, I think we should protect them and provide for them”, the men who wear T-shirts with jokey slogans about how they’ll kill anyone who hurts their daughter, the men who say “oh here we go…” when their wife or gf starts trying to open a difficult conversation with them…

All of this is part of the problem, it all shores up the problem, it all enables and supports men who do worse. Are these men also fundamentally broken? Or would you say they’re not doing anything wrong? bmd

 

[story]

I think you need to go back to teacher school if this is your style with the men you teach about these issues. Yes, I know you're not a proper teacher.

Read the thread. There are books I could read. I could read what women here have put too. I could but I would like to engage on my terms. I know, sounds like a man doesn't it. I don't know. I think it sounds like me. I build up to stuff. I want to understand what each person actually thinks, not what they've read. What their experiences are. not what they print out here. I feel like when I engage with people in the here and now that that happens.

All men. Not me. Yes, I get it. Not me is what a man would say. I have spent my life feeling guilty and ashamed because those are the things instilled in me. Guilty and ashamed of whatever. So when I'm told I'm like a man who hits women or wolf whistles at them in the street or whatever it is that I'm exactly the same as, I wonder why? How am I? What have I done, exactly? I think back. I zoom in. I look at my behaviour. I know what' it's like to feel afraid. To be a victim of violence. To be a victim of words and deeds. I set out in my life to wipe those things from me. All the isms. I focused mainly on Sexism because my mum didn't want to know me and so I tried harder to please her. I think I did ok. So when you say all of that doesn't matter. That I'm no different. Well, I'm going to have to see your working out, please.

This comes over as really lofty.


And while it’s shit that you've had to deal with violence and good that you've worked to excise the -isms from yourself, bear in mind that the pain and fear that results from misogyny is something women are trying to deal with on a huge and systemic scale, and asking men to help with. And that excising the -isms from oneself is not work that you get to the end of, it’s always ongoing work.

You don’t get a medal for basic decency.

 

[story]

bmd, you seem to want people restart the discussion because you can't be bothered to read the thread. It feels less 'engaging on your own terms' and more 'me, me, ME' tbh.

It is engaging in his own terms though.
It is saying that he will only engage on his own terms.

 

[Sweet FA]

I think you need to go back to teacher school if this is your style with the men you teach about these issues. Yes, I know you're not a proper teacher.

Read the thread. There are books I could read. I could read what women here have put too. I could but I would like to engage on my terms. I know, sounds like a man doesn't it. I don't know. I think it sounds like me. I build up to stuff. I want to understand what each person actually thinks, not what they've read. What their experiences are. not what they print out here. I feel like when I engage with people in the here and now that that happens.

All men. Not me. Yes, I get it. Not me is what a man would say. I have spent my life feeling guilty and ashamed because those are the things instilled in me. Guilty and ashamed of whatever. So when I'm told I'm like a man who hits women or wolf whistles at them in the street or whatever it is that I'm exactly the same as, I wonder why? How am I? What have I done, exactly? I think back. I zoom in. I look at my behaviour. I know what' it's like to feel afraid. To be a victim of violence. To be a victim of words and deeds. I set out in my life to wipe those things from me. All the isms. I focused mainly on Sexism because my mum didn't want to know me and so I tried harder to please her. I think I did ok. So when you say all of that doesn't matter. That I'm no different. Well, I'm going to have to see your working out, please.

You arrogant prick.

I engaged with you in good faith & you've done nothing but whine. You're not ready for the conversation mate, you're all over the shop.

 

[A380]

I think you need to go back to teacher school if this is your style with the men you teach about these issues. Yes, I know you're not a proper teacher.

Read the thread. There are books I could read. I could read what women here have put too. I could but I would like to engage on my terms. I know, sounds like a man doesn't it. I don't know. I think it sounds like me. I build up to stuff. I want to understand what each person actually thinks, not what they've read. What their experiences are. not what they print out here. I feel like when I engage with people in the here and now that that happens.

All men. Not me. Yes, I get it. Not me is what a man would say. I have spent my life feeling guilty and ashamed because those are the things instilled in me. Guilty and ashamed of whatever. So when I'm told I'm like a man who hits women or wolf whistles at them in the street or whatever it is that I'm exactly the same as, I wonder why? How am I? What have I done, exactly? I think back. I zoom in. I look at my behaviour. I know what' it's like to feel afraid. To be a victim of violence. To be a victim of words and deeds. I set out in my life to wipe those things from me. All the isms. I focused mainly on Sexism because my mum didn't want to know me and so I tried harder to please her. I think I did ok. So when you say all of that doesn't matter. That I'm no different. Well, I'm going to have to see your working out, please.

Thanks for pointing out once again that when it comes to violence against women it us men who are the true victims...

 

[friendofdorothy]

Over 90% of all murderers are men, stats across the world are remarkably consistent on this. A 2013 UN homicide survey found that 96% of homocide perpetrators worldwide are male.
Not sure % male /female victims.

But this thread isn't just about murder it's about violence against women. I would argue male violence or the reasonable fear of violence is what underpins patriarcharial power.

If as a man you are not personally violent you live in a world that is, a world were women alter their behaviour because of this fear.

Did I expect to arrive at a solution to changing male violence?no I'm far too old and cynical.

But I hoped the women of urban would clearly identify and define the behaviours that they find problematic, and the men of urban would listen and become more aware of their own and other men's unwanted behaviour.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I think you need to go back to teacher school if this is your style with the men you teach about these issues. Yes, I know you're not a proper teacher.

Read the thread. There are books I could read. I could read what women here have put too. I could but I would like to engage on my terms. I know, sounds like a man doesn't it. I don't know. I think it sounds like me. I build up to stuff. I want to understand what each person actually thinks, not what they've read. What their experiences are. not what they print out here. I feel like when I engage with people in the here and now that that happens.

All men. Not me. Yes, I get it. Not me is what a man would say. I have spent my life feeling guilty and ashamed because those are the things instilled in me. Guilty and ashamed of whatever. So when I'm told I'm like a man who hits women or wolf whistles at them in the street or whatever it is that I'm exactly the same as, I wonder why? How am I? What have I done, exactly? I think back. I zoom in. I look at my behaviour. I know what' it's like to feel afraid. To be a victim of violence. To be a victim of words and deeds. I set out in my life to wipe those things from me. All the isms. I focused mainly on Sexism because my mum didn't want to know me and so I tried harder to please her. I think I did ok. So when you say all of that doesn't matter. That I'm no different. Well, I'm going to have to see your working out, please.

I don't care about your guilt - doesn't help women at all. This thread is not about youget over yourself. If you want to engage and learn from urb women, why should we repeat ourselves? read the fucking thread, we are not your fucking teachers.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Why do so many men want to engage with threads about feminism by saying 'not me! this does not apply to me'?

 

[A380]

Why do so many men want to engage with threads about feminism by saying 'not me! this does not apply to me'?

Because it’s all about the poor mens.

Because they need to show to themselves and others that they are above that, that they are superior to all those horrible other men out there. And of course, being male, that, obviously, they understand the issues and feelings of women with far greater depth and sensitivity than the little ladies.

 

[Spandex]

Why do so many men want to engage with threads about feminism by saying 'not me! this does not apply to me'?

It does seem to be part of a process many men go through as they take an interest in feminism.

Starting out giving no thought to feminism, maybe even thinking it's just women moaning, there comes a recognition that maybe there is something to it. But having recognised that, they aren't yet ready to accept their behaviour is patriarchal - it's other men, bad men, not nice men like me.

Following on from that step, if they move on from that step, is finding out more about feminism and then, in their blokes way, demonstrating their manly superiority by mansplaining to all, showing they're an expert on the subject. Cos men have to demonstrate their superiority - it's part of male pride.

The next step, should they reach it, is a realisation that they have to self-reflect, to self-examine their own behaviours, to come to terms with the fact that they have and do engage in patriarchal behaviour. That they may have done horrible things. That yes, it is all men, even if they only do the more day to day things, like talking over women, giving more weight to men's opinions, staring at women.

Then they have to set about changing their behaviour, which is easier said than done, as it is internalised behaviour that is so ingrained it comes naturally without thought.

If there's further steps after that someone will have to tell me, as I'm still stuck there.

But, to be positive, men recognising patriarchy but not thinking its them is a step in the right direction, an acknowledgement that they've seen the problem, and they need encouraging along the path to where they can recognise it is them, what it is about them and that they have to change. But men come to this in their own time and it's frustrating having the same conversation over and over again as another man rocks up at step one on the path to becoming a better person.

 

[story]

Why do so many men want to engage with threads about feminism by saying 'not me! this does not apply to me'?

Because they feel threatened. Which triggers their defence of their position, and thus the patriarchy itself.

It‘s very uncomfortable to be told “You are part of the problem. You’re not looking properly, you don’t understand it properly, you’re not thinking about it properly…” That criticism not only threatens to undermine their safety and status within the patriarchy it also feels like a personal attack. So they rush to self defence “It’s not me”. (Or they go on the attack. Or double down on their male privilege or... )

Their sense of self and identity is so entirely entangled with the patriarchy that they can’t really discern the distinction, not fully, not really, not deeply. Working to untangle that is really painful and really difficult.

 

[story]

It does seem to be part of a process many men go through as they take an interest in feminism.

Starting out giving no thought to feminism, maybe even thinking it's just women moaning, there comes a recognition that maybe there is something to it. But having recognised that, they aren't yet ready to accept their behaviour is patriarchal - it's other men, bad men, not nice men like me.

Following on from that step, if they move on from that step, is finding out more about feminism and then, in their blokes way, demonstrating their manly superiority by mansplaining to all, showing they're an expert on the subject. Cos men have to demonstrate their superiority - it's part of male pride.

The next step, should they reach it, is a realisation that they have to self-reflect, to self-examine their own behaviours, to come to terms with the fact that they have and do engage in patriarchal behaviour. That they may have done horrible things. That yes, it is all men, even if they only do the more day to day things, like talking over women, giving more weight to men's opinions, staring at women.

Then they have to set about changing their behaviour, which is easier said than done, as it is internalised behaviour that is so ingrained it comes naturally without thought.

If there's further steps after that someone will have to tell me, as I'm still stuck there.

But, to be positive, men recognising patriarchy but not thinking its them is a step in the right direction, an acknowledgement that they've seen the problem, and they need encouraging along the path to where they can recognise it is them, what it is about them and that they have to change. But men come to this in their own time and it's frustrating having the same conversation over and over again as another man rocks up at step one on the path to becoming a better person.

Good honest helpful post.


So how did you make those initial steps? What got you to the point of not giving feminism much thought to recognition and then taking some steps to deal with your own stuff?

 

[Gromit]

Over 90% of all murderers are men, stats across the world are remarkably consistent on this. A 2013 UN homicide survey found that 96% of homocide perpetrators worldwide are male.
Not sure % male /female victims.

But this thread isn't just about murder it's about violence against women. I would argue male violence or the reasonable fear of violence is what underpins patriarcharial power.

If as a man you are not personally violent you live in a world that is, a world were women alter their behaviour because of this fear.

Did I expect to arrive at a solution to changing male violence?no I'm far too old and cynical.

But I hoped the women of urban would clearly identify and define the behaviours that they find problematic, and the men of urban would listen and become more aware of their own and other men's unwanted behaviour.

Are men more murdery?
Or are women just smarter at not getting caught and so are missing from the stats?

Look at that Carol from Tiger King. Blatently fed her husband to the Tigers yet has gotten away with it.

 

[Spandex]

Good honest helpful post.


So how did you make those initial steps? What got you to the point of not giving feminism much thought to recognition and then taking some steps to deal with your own stuff?

As a teenage punk, hearing feminist records, meeting radical feminists I recognised the problem, but seeing myself as a nice, not-particuarly macho bloke I thought that was me done - it's not me. It was another 15 or 20 years before I was reading women's experiences and recognised things I had done and things I still do were all part of the problem. I remember reading stuff and indignantly thinking 'that's not me!' before thinking further and concluding, actually, yes it is. I remember when we got a new woman boss and me and another male worker were talking all over her when she introduced herself and as I was doing it a lightbulb went on in my head and i thought 'stop doing that!'. Since then it's been a constant ongoing process of trying to unpick all those things I subconsciously do and I'm still very much a work in progress.

 

[Winot]

This is quite good I think.

Calling all men: this is what we can do to help women feel safe exercising in the dark | Chris Boardman

We have to break the cycle of misogyny that makes women feel at risk: This Girl Can’s guide sets out steps you can take, says Chris Boardman of Sport England

www.theguardian.com

 

[kabbes]

Good honest helpful post.


So how did you make those initial steps? What got you to the point of not giving feminism much thought to recognition and then taking some steps to deal with your own stuff?

Can’t speak for Spandex but the thing that got me personally over a load of blind spots towards a whole load of my own behaviours, and then be able to change those behaviours, was a year’s worth of intensive and expensive therapy. I’m not sure that it’s a particularly scalable solution, though. And that’s for someone starting from a position of already having had a radical feminist upbringing and being highly aware of the existence of these issues!

 

[Pickman's model]

Are men more murdery?
Or are women just smarter at not getting caught and so are missing from the stats?

Look at that Carol from Tiger King. Blatently fed her husband to the Tigers yet has gotten away with it.

Post reported

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Are men more murdery?
Or are women just smarter at not getting caught and so are missing from the stats?

Look at that Carol from Tiger King. Blatently fed her husband to the Tigers yet has gotten away with it.

Brilliant point. Brilliant.