Feminism and violence again women

[bmd]

Yes, exactly! And what doesn't help is this "real men don't [X, Y or Z]." Like the ones who do that are some kind of thuggish stereotype or a sinister creep lurking somewhere else. Who'd be mates with someone like that? "If I knew someone like that I'd..." Whereas so many women strangely enough do encounter them.

It is the responsibility of all men to take on these behaviours wherever they are. Either within them or seen by them. It feels really unmanly to be saying that, which is, I guess, the messages that have settled into my consciousness. Luckily enough I have two amazing daughters, my pride and joy and once I began to look at the world through their eyes I saw how they would experience it. That understanding drives my desire for a world where they can be all they want to be.

 

[dessiato]

It is the responsibility of all men to take on these behaviours wherever they are. Either within them or seen by them. It feels really unmanly to be saying that, which is, I guess, the messages that have settled into my consciousness. Luckily enough I have two amazing daughters, my pride and joy and once I began to look at the world through their eyes I saw how they would experience it. That understanding drives my desire for a world where they can be all they want to be.

I think having daughters must change the way you see the world. I don’t have children, but have four sisters, 9 nieces, but only 3 nephews. I was brought up in an area where I was the only boy. I’m convinced this is why I see much of the world differently to most of my male friends. I’m certain that having daughters would have changed me even more. Like you I think it is essential that men start to challenge inappropriate behaviour towards women and girls, it’s on every single one of us to do so. Unless this is brought into the open bad behaviour will continue. After all if you don’t think what you’re doing is wrong, if no one ever tells you it’s wrong, how will you know, how will you know you need to change?

 

[Pickman's model]

maybe having daughters does change the way you see the world. but probably only if you're open to new ideas, or new thinking - to give but one counter-example, prince andrew has one sister and two daughters but everyone knows about his behaviour.

 

[weepiper]

Yes. If having daughters was the magic bullet there would be no women who had experienced child abuse by their fathers.

 

[Athos]

 

[ViolentPanda]

It is the responsibility of all men to take on these behaviours wherever they are. Either within them or seen by them. It feels really unmanly to be saying that, which is, I guess, the messages that have settled into my consciousness. Luckily enough I have two amazing daughters, my pride and joy and once I began to look at the world through their eyes I saw how they would experience it. That understanding drives my desire for a world where they can be all they want to be.

I recently chaired a series of discussions about social housing. The headmistress (she likes that title) of our local all-girl secondary school attended, & I spoke to her about the big problem of "kerb crawlers" & randoms propositioning girls from her school while they waited at bus stops, & groups of schoolboys from the local mixed school "bundling" girls from her school to grope them etc. She didn't know anything about it.
I've got in quite a few rows - especially since Greebo died - with scumbags pulling these tricks, including a few fistfights. I don't have any daughters, but I know what it's like to be a victim, & it's my duty to try to stop this shit where I see it. It's every man's duty to police the behaviour of his fellow men. Sadly, there are a lot of cowards out there, & a significant (& it seems to me, growing) minority of men who see women as something less than human, as objects to be used.

 

[ViolentPanda]

maybe having daughters does change the way you see the world. but probably only if you're open to new ideas, or new thinking - to give but one counter-example, prince andrew has one sister and two daughters but everyone knows about his behaviour.

Including what looked like him fondling his own daughter in a sexual manner.

 

[bmd]

I recently chaired a series of discussions about social housing. The headmistress (she likes that title) of our local all-girl secondary school attended, & I spoke to her about the big problem of "kerb crawlers" & randoms propositioning girls from her school while they waited at bus stops, & groups of schoolboys from the local mixed school "bundling" girls from her school to grope them etc. She didn't know anything about it.
I've got in quite a few rows - especially since Greebo died - with scumbags pulling these tricks, including a few fistfights. I don't have any daughters, but I know what it's like to be a victim, & it's my duty to try to stop this shit where I see it. It's every man's duty to police the behaviour of his fellow men. Sadly, there are a lot of cowards out there, & a significant (& it seems to me, growing) minority of men who see women as something less than human, as objects to be used.

Be careful of you, my friend. Grief is a strange one, at times. Good to hear Greebo's name in the here and now.

I do wonder what is going on with boys and their attitudes towards girls. It's worrying that we don't seem to be moving anywhere with this stuff.

 

[bmd]

1 in 5 girls don't feel safe at school.

 

[dessiato]

1 in 5 girls don't feel safe at school.

I've just had my niece and her daughters staying with me. We had this conversation. I was shocked to hear some of the things the 14 year old has had to put up with. It's not "just" bullying, it is close to serious assault, usually by other girls, often sexual. The school seems disinterested in doing much about it. It seems her crime is that she's slim, pretty, bright, and loves playing sports.

Sitting with her and her older sister has been eye opening. I didn't realise how awful English schools can be. It's the 21st century, why are these things still happening?

 

[bmd]

I've just had my niece and her daughters staying with me. We had this conversation. I was shocked to hear some of the things the 14 year old has had to put up with. It's not "just" bullying, it is close to serious assault, usually by other girls, often sexual. The school seems disinterested in doing much about it. It seems her crime is that she's slim, pretty, bright, and loves playing sports.

Sitting with her and her older sister has been eye opening. I didn't realise how awful English schools can be. It's the 21st century, why are these things still happening?

I'm so sorry that this is happening in your family.

 

[bmd]

View attachment 347671

I have examined my attitudes towards women through the lens of my relationship with my mum. It is an ongoing conversation. My sister and I acknowledge that the positive stuff I feel for women is down to her parenting me as we grew up. More recently it is my daughters who have guided my heart and mind. I think that a lot of what I have thought about women has come from my mother and is buried in my subconscious. I want to be a better person in relation to other women.

 

[bmd]

When will women feel safe on UK streets?

 

[Sweet FA]

I think having daughters must change the way you see the world. I don’t have children, but have four sisters, 9 nieces, but only 3 nephews. I was brought up in an area where I was the only boy. I’m convinced this is why I see much of the world differently to most of my male friends. I’m certain that having daughters would have changed me even more. Like you I think it is essential that men start to challenge inappropriate behaviour towards women and girls, it’s on every single one of us to do so. Unless this is brought into the open bad behaviour will continue. After all if you don’t think what you’re doing is wrong, if no one ever tells you it’s wrong, how will you know, how will you know you need to change?

Haven't you put up a spirited defence of Hooters or lap dancing or something in the past?

 

[Sue]

Haven't you put up a spirited defence of Hooters or lap dancing or something in the past?

I think that was based on their excellent cuisine. Or something.

 

[friendofdorothy]

When will women feel safe on UK streets?

Enough is enough, women seemed to collectively say, and politicians found themselves forced to respond.

Things will change, they promised. But six months on, what, if anything, has actually changed? We are now faced with another act of femicide, with the murder of primary school teacher Sabina Nessa last week, and the outpouring of anger and frustration is audible once more.

has anything changed?

 

[bmd]

has anything changed?

Definitely not. How will change happen? What would be the way forward? The end result, even? No more women murdered seems, to be brutally frank, unrealistic. Do we tackle violence in the home first, for example?

 

[friendofdorothy]

Definitely not. How will change happen? What would be the way forward? The end result, even? No more women murdered seems, to be brutally frank, unrealistic. Do we tackle violence in the home first, for example?

ask your daughters. And tell other men how to behave.

 

[bmd]

ask your daughters. And tell other men how to behave.

Ask my daughters how I stop men from murdering them? All other men? Narrow it down for me?

 

[Gromit]

I think that was based on their excellent cuisine. Or something.

That would have been me.
I do love their chicken wing sauce coating thingie.

Don't really give a shit if it's served to me by a woman willing to wear a tight top for better tips or bloke in a gimp suit or by Hitler. Just gimme them wings.

ETA: it's been over 15 years since I've had those wings. They might be shit now for all I know.

 

[Santino]

That would have been me.
I do love their chicken wing sauce coating thingie.

Don't really give a shit if it's served to me by a woman willing to wear a tight top for better tips or bloke in a gimp suit or by Hitler. Just gimme them wings.

ETA: it's been over 15 years since I've had those wings. They might be shit now for all I know.

Fuck off you absolute shitstain

 

[bmd]

Ask my daughters how I stop men from murdering them? All other men? Narrow it down for me?

Replying to my own post. It has come to this. Let me try again. I will ask my daughters what their experience of unwanted... attention, harassment is always unwanted, attention seems quite benign, what is the word to describe this? Violence is rather shrill for this context. Insidious behaviours? Not sure. Anyway, I will have a conversation with them.

I asked you to narrow it down for me because I do want to have a conversation about All Men. I don't understand the argument that we do not qualify the statement. I want to have a conversation rather than an argument please, friendofdorothy. I named you because I was responding to your comment but, obviously it's for everyone.

 

[Sweet FA]

Replying to my own post. It has come to this. Let me try again. I will ask my daughters what their experience of unwanted... attention, harassment is always unwanted, attention seems quite benign, what is the word to describe this? Violence is rather shrill for this context. Insidious behaviours? Not sure. Anyway, I will have a conversation with them.

I asked you to narrow it down for me because I do want to have a conversation about All Men. I don't understand the argument that we do not qualify the statement. I want to have a conversation rather than an argument please, friendofdorothy. I named you because I was responding to your comment but, obviously it's for everyone.

Without wanting to answer for friendofdorothy, they've answered & discussed this and questions like it on the thread already, for eg on page 1:

porn / commodification of female bodies / objectifying women certainly leads to us being seen as existing for the purpose of sex and reinforces the idea that women are generally less than human.

Also poot, kali, spanglechick, dystopiary, smokedout and loads of others have made posts answering what you're asking.

Part of my own barriers to this discussion including men, is that - while I know it’s essential to include men for lots of reasons, I also get really antsy at the prospect of blokes saying “it’s simple: any man who hits a woman isn’t a real man.” or whatever. That none of their mates would do it. Etc.

And it comes down to two things. Firstly, that stuff feels diminishing and minimising the problem. It is real men. It is some of your friends, colleagues, family. Men who are violent to women and girls aren’t rare. And then secondly, some of the men saying that easy platitudinous stuff will be men who are or have been violent. It sounds the same whether the man is sincere or not.
______________

They get called animals, beasts, monsters etc but it's bullshit really because they are very much human beings. I think this is part of the problem. A lot of men will hear about rapists and "other" them, like they're a very separate entity or a different species, instead of asking why they might do stuff like that.
______________

Also this post by Spandex:

Feminism and violence again women

I'd be interested to hear your ideas on the causes. Yes I think the word patriarchy just names the system, it doesnt explain it. I don't have any big theories, I was just saying that without theories we don't get very far. Talking about personal experiences is important, but it doesn't get us...

www.urban75.net

 

[bmd]

Without wanting to answer for friendofdorothy, they've answered & discussed this and questions like it on the thread already, for eg on page 1:

porn / commodification of female bodies / objectifying women certainly leads to us being seen as existing for the purpose of sex and reinforces the idea that women are generally less than human.

Also poot, kali, spanglechick, dystopiary, smokedout and loads of others have made posts answering what you're asking.

Part of my own barriers to this discussion including men, is that - while I know it’s essential to include men for lots of reasons, I also get really antsy at the prospect of blokes saying “it’s simple: any man who hits a woman isn’t a real man.” or whatever. That none of their mates would do it. Etc.

And it comes down to two things. Firstly, that stuff feels diminishing and minimising the problem. It is real men. It is some of your friends, colleagues, family. Men who are violent to women and girls aren’t rare. And then secondly, some of the men saying that easy platitudinous stuff will be men who are or have been violent. It sounds the same whether the man is sincere or not.
______________

They get called animals, beasts, monsters etc but it's bullshit really because they are very much human beings. I think this is part of the problem. A lot of men will hear about rapists and "other" them, like they're a very separate entity or a different species, instead of asking why they might do stuff like that.
______________

Also this post by Spandex:

Feminism and violence again women

I'd be interested to hear your ideas on the causes. Yes I think the word patriarchy just names the system, it doesnt explain it. I don't have any big theories, I was just saying that without theories we don't get very far. Talking about personal experiences is important, but it doesn't get us...

www.urban75.net

I understand that. I have worked with paedophiles. Perpetrators of violence against women and men. I know what labels do. So there you go, those are my qualifications.

I would like to engage with the women who have these experiences. I would love to talk about what was said about women's beliefs that men who do these things are simply men. Are they? That all men have these beliefs and qualities. If they do then what are you doing about yourself, Sweet FA?

My belief is around the saying that it takes a village to raise a child. That we are all responsible. In a relationship breakdown we think about what we have done. Please don't wade in to ask what women who are murdered by men have done? Or women who are in violent relationships? I'm talking about societal responsibilities. What do the women here do about these things other than hope? What do they want, in a practical sense, from men?

I realise that I'm setting myself up for an Urban beating but I want to talk about this so I won't engage with rage. This is how I understand. How my head connects with my heart.

 

[bmd]

One part of this issue that I haven't talked about is that men are violent to other men. My father destroyed my childhood. So much so that I have had trouble engaging with other males in a meaningful way throughout my life. Males kill other males. I understand that this is a separate issue too but it is also a part of this conversation. Not in a me too kind of way but in the way I mentioned before, that we all need to be intimately involved with the solutions to this issue because it affects us all.

 

[Sweet FA]

...men who do these things are simply men. Are they? That all men have these beliefs and qualities.

With very few exceptions (and the caveat that I guess I'm referring to 'our' society), yes, the rapists and murderers are simply men; how could they not be? Also yes, whether we accept it or not I'd say most men do have these beliefs and qualities. We're brought up that way. I'd also say most men don't get it - dess comes across as a classic in this regard.

what are you doing about yourself, Sweet FA?

Reading & listening mainly. Challenging shit behaviour in other men; pointing it out when sexist comments are made in my class; trying not to react with anger when I'm picked up on my own shit behaviour; loads and loads of reflection; mainly listening to women tbf. The one big thing is starting with the viewpoint that if a woman has pointed something out, she's got a point - not to get defensive.

 

[Sweet FA]

What do the women here do about these things other than hope? What do they want, in a practical sense, from men?

Have you read the thread?

Also, it sounds like you're asking women how to stop men raping and murdering them - sorry if I've misunderstood.

 

[bmd]

With very few exceptions (and the caveat that I guess I'm referring to 'our' society), yes, the rapists and murderers are simply men; how could they not be? Also yes, whether we accept it or not I'd say most men do have these beliefs and qualities. We're brought up that way. I'd also say most men don't buy it - dess comes across as a classic in this regard.


Reading & listening mainly. Challenging shit behaviour in other men; pointing it out when sexist comments are made in my class; trying not to react with anger when I'm picked up on my own shit behaviour; loads and loads of reflection; mainly listening to women tbf. The one big thing is starting with the viewpoint that if a woman has pointed something out, she's got a point - not to get defensive.

When I said 'simply men' I meant that men who perpetrate violence against others are not simply men. They are broken in some fundamental ways, imo. So when we lump all men in with this view I think we are doing the Monster label thing again.

Getting in between our defences and our responses is quite advanced self awareness but I think I understand what you mean. It does sound like a very good way forward. It would just need to have a value within our society now.

 

[bmd]

Have you read the thread?

Also, it sounds you're asking women how to stop men raping and murdering them - sorry if I've misunderstood.

I haven't, no. Please whip out your roll eyes emoji. I'm engaged with it now. Here. You sound great though.

I am asking exactly that. I'm not sure if you were asking me if I'm saying that makes them responsible for the behaviour of men but I'm guessing you are.

 

[Sweet FA]

I haven't, no. Please whip out your roll eyes emoji. I'm engaged with it now. Here. You sound great though.

I am asking exactly that. I'm not sure if you were asking me if I'm saying that makes them responsible for the behaviour of men but I'm guessing you are.

Well fucking read the thread then man, there's loads of answers to the questions you're asking

Then you could ask your questions based on what women have already told you. Otherwise you might come across like you're a bloke demanding answers from women who've already answered your questions.

Also if that's what you're asking, it's a stupid question.




Dunno what you mean by 'You sound great though. ' If you mean you don't think I'm being sincere, you can fuck off