Feminism and the silencing of women

[polly]

I've somehow escaped relatively unscathed on this in the workplace, but my god at university it was awful. They were like peacocks. I recently went to a talk at LSE and it was all women in the very small audience apart from one man, and he brought me right back to student days. Absolutely nothing of value to contribute, just wanted to let everyone in the room know that he knew stuff. Contradicting the very established female lecturer and forcing everyone to listen to his side-tracking pedantry. There has to be some middle path between the male confidence that everyone wants to hear their every observation and the female fear that no one wants to hear anything they have to say.

 

[RubyToogood]

I've been pondering how to deal with the social situation when you find yourself being subjected to a monologue. I had a weekend a while back when three different men at different times just talked at me non stop for ages.

It's made me very conscious of that conversational balance and how often I am just a recipient for a man's precious words. There are also women who don't shut up of course but they seem less common.

One doesn't wish to appear rude but it's not really OK behaviour.

Mind you, actually finding anyone who really listens properly is a rarity.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Thanks Poot wtfftw and RubyToogood how do we interrupt the non stop male teams meet the pub bore the professional male monologuer? There must be ways that aren't rude?

As I don't care for fragile male egos I often interrupt but I think I'm probably thought of a rude, gobby, northerner. I'm aware it isn't always appropriate. And doesn't make me popular.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I've somehow escaped relatively unscathed on this in the workplace, but my god at university it was awful. They were like peacocks. I recently went to a talk at LSE and it was all women in the very small audience apart from one man, and he brought me right back to student days. Absolutely nothing of value to contribute, just wanted to let everyone in the room know that he knew stuff. Contradicting the very established female lecturer and forcing everyone to listen to his side-tracking pedantry. There has to be some middle path between the male confidence that everyone wants to hear their every observation and the female fear that no one wants to hear anything they have to say.

You would expect younger men (assuming student was a younger person?) to be more self aware wouldn't you.
How was it addressed in the lecture, or not?

 

[Poot]

Thanks Poot wtfftw and RubyToogood how do we interrupt the non stop male teams meet the pub bore the professional male monologuer? There must be ways that aren't rude?

As I don't care for fragile male egos I often interrupt but I think I'm probably thought of a rude, gobby, northerner. I'm aware it isn't always appropriate. And doesn't make me popular.

Well for me I would just ban Teams meetings unless there's an agenda and it's absolutely relevant to everyone. No one has time for the fart-smellers.

If I find myself in a meeting like that I mute myself, pretend to answer the phone, flap my arms about and leave. If anyone asks, I tell them it was an emergency.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'm dealing with a lot of committee type on line meetings and there are men who, while I don't want to shut them up. I wish they would keep it brief, to the point, and save all the valuable minutiae of all their ponderings for the working groups, when they will no doubt say it all again. At length, possibly more than once.

If I'm chairing I've done the 'Sorry to interrupt Joe, but can I ask you sum up as we have a full agenda to get through' or 'sorry Joe, Jo also had her hand up and we are short on time'

 

[Sue]

You would expect younger men (assuming student was a younger person?) to be more self aware wouldn't you.
How was it addressed in the lecture, or not?

Having worked with a lot of younger men, they may believe they are but in practice? Nah.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I've been pondering how to deal with the social situation when you find yourself being subjected to a monologue. I had a weekend a while back when three different men at different times just talked at me non stop for ages.

It's made me very conscious of that conversational balance and how often I am just a recipient for a man's precious words. There are also women who don't shut up of course but they seem less common.

One doesn't wish to appear rude but it's not really OK behaviour.

Mind you, actually finding anyone who really listens properly is a rarity.

Sounds as if you are a good listener!

I can be a windbag I know, particularly if the subject is one of my passions/ hobbyhorse, but I'm well aware conversation, especially social friendly conversations have to have a to and fro so everyone gets a turn. That is only common courtesy surely? You have to ask questions of the other person too, that is the deal in a good conversation. Isn't it?

Are men somehow unaware of this? Or unaware of how much they talk?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

If I'm chairing I've done the 'Sorry to interrupt Joe, but can I ask you sum up as we have a full agenda to get through' or 'sorry Joe, Jo also had her hand up and we are short on time'

but have you READ THE STANDING ORDERS?

 

[friendofdorothy]

Think there is a perception that if one woman speaks against 5 men then thats balanced. Same applies for people of colour.

I learned a while ago from a younger non binary person who said they didn't speak at events if the panel was all white, all cis, or all men. Fortunately the event I was asking them to speak at fitted that requirement very well. I've been very conscious of this when assembled panels of speakers since.

 

[Poot]

Think there is a perception that if one woman speaks against 5 men then thats balanced. Same applies for people of colour.

I learned a while ago from a younger non binary person who said they didn't speak at events if the panel was all white, all cis, or all men. Fortunately the event I was asking them to speak at fitted that requirement very well. I've been very conscious of this when assembled panels of speakers since.

That's interesting. And probably a policy we should all adopt, really.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Think there is a perception that if one woman speaks against 5 men then thats balanced. Same applies for people of colour..

Yes, or worse.

https://pure.mpg.de/rest/items/item_68785_7/component/file_506904/content

 

[friendofdorothy]

I've been very conscious of this when assembled panels of speakers since.

Just remembered someone asked me at the end of a recent event 'but where's the T?' and I began to explain how a transwoman I had invited to speak had unfortunately had to cancel, but no they meant 'where is the tea?'

 

[polly]

You would expect younger men (assuming student was a younger person?) to be more self aware wouldn't you.
How was it addressed in the lecture, or not?

He wasn't young, I would say middle aged (though as Sue says, I get the impression young men are just as bad). He was a white, English man and the lecturer was a Chinese woman whose mother tongue is Mandarin, and the lecture was Chinese language themed You would think that would instil some humility but he was a proper blowhard. On the pedantry, there was a bit of back and forth and eventually she quickly followed one of her answers with the next point. I don't know if I was projecting but she seemed as fed up with him as I was.

 

[Sue]

I can be a windbag I know, particularly if the subject is one of my passions/ hobbyhorse, but I'm well aware conversation, especially social friendly conversations have to have a to and fro so everyone gets a turn. That is only common courtesy surely? You have to ask questions of the other person too, that is the deal in a good conversation. Isn't it?

Somewhere I worked, I'd a late 20s male friend who has social anxiety in big groups. He was very worried about a work social thing we needed to go to so I said I'd hang out with him etc. When we arrived, I was like 'watch this.' I said hello to a male colleague I didn't know and asked him a couple of questions.

He then talked about himself for the next 10 mins. At that point, I said 'lovely talking to you, need to mingle' and wandered off. Said to colleague/friend 'that's all you need to do.' He was astonished and was like 'does that always work? Do people never ask questions back?' and I could genuinely say that in that/similar companies I found men very rarely did. (And if they did, a short answer and another question to them and they'd be off again.)

Are men somehow unaware of this? Or unaware of how much they talk?

Both? I did some internet dating (shoot me now) and after two hours of a date, I'd typically know loads and loads about the bloke while he'd know practically nothing about me because 1) he was so busy talking about himself and had completely dominated the 'conversation' 2) didn't seem to get that conversations that aren't two-sided aren't really conversations.

 

[Sue]

He wasn't young, I would say middle aged (though as Sue says, I get the impression young men are just as bad). He was a white, English man and the lecturer was a Chinese woman whose mother tongue is Mandarin, and the lecture was Chinese language themed You would think that would instil some humility but he was a proper blowhard. On the pedantry, there was a bit of back and forth and eventually she quickly followed one of her answers with the next point. I don't know if I was projecting but she seemed as fed up with him as I was.

I literally had a 25 year old with two years of work experience -- and who's never done my job -- tell me that 'no, you're wrong, you should be doing your job like this.'

So with my 25 years' experience, I said (sweetly), 'Oh, I didn't realise you'd worked as x? Where was that?'

And even then he of course wouldn't concede that he didn't know anything about it. Read something in some book whose name he couldn't recall one time apparently. So yeah.

 

[polly]

I remember that, Sue! Imagine ever doing that?!

Somewhere I worked, I'd a late 20s male friend who has social anxiety in big groups. He was very worried about a work social thing we needed to go to so I said I'd hang out with him etc. When we arrived, I was like 'watch this.' I said hello to a male colleague I didn't know and asked him a couple of questions.

He then talked about himself for the next 10 mins. At that point, I said 'lovely talking to you, need to mingle' and wandered off. Said to colleague/friend 'that's all you need to do.' He was astonished and was like 'does that always work? Do people never ask questions back?' and I could genuinely say that in that/similar companies I found men very rarely did. (And if they did, a short answer and another question to them and they'd be off again.)

Huh, that's made me think. One of my best friends is male and, while I adore him (more than he deserves tbh) and our conversations are interesting and funny, I have noticed that he very rarely asks me anything. Not even how are you! I am interrogating my parenting now to see if I'm raising my son to be so inconsiderate.

 

[kalidarkone]

So what I am seeing/ experiencing at my work place is that the young women that I train and mentor (Health Care Assistants) seem to lack confidence and their biggest problem is being assertive, despite being really on the ball.

Whereas one young man, can not take direction, is defensive when I've pointed out mistakes that heavily impact patient safety and is trying to run before he can walk. Does not understand the limitations of his role. Very dangerous and I will be keeping a close eye on him. I definitely feel that he unconsciously does not listen to women. The difference between him and the young women of his age in a work setting is quite stark.

 

[weepiper]

I literally had a 25 year old with two years of work experience -- and who's never done my job -- tell me that 'no, you're wrong, you should be doing your job like this.'

So with my 25 years' experience, I said (sweetly), 'Oh, I didn't realise you'd worked as x? Where was that?'

And even then he of course wouldn't concede that he didn't know anything about it. Read something in some book whose name he couldn't recall one time apparently. So yeah.

Similar, except he was twenty one and had been doing the job for six months. He actually quit on the spot because I snapped under extreme personal life pressure (my then partner was very ill in hospital) and told him not to fucking argue with me about how something was done.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I am very aware of research in medical teams supporting this idea, but even accounting for the fact my teams are incredibly women dominated (one is 100% wonen!) it’s thankfully not something I notice. Would that still hold if one made adjustments based on the ratio of men and women? Probably because a) my male colleagues do seem to be the gentle rather than alpha male types, and b) some of the women have got some very strong personalities. And have privilege in other ways.

Also whilst I apologise for the side step, there’s this whole idea that only ND people interrupt. They don’t, NT people interrupt too, just in different ways. That’s very apparent in our meetings.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

rather than alpha male types

is now a good time to re-post this?

 

[Red Cat]

I am very aware of research in medical teams supporting this idea, but even accounting for the fact my teams are incredibly women dominated (one is 100% wonen!) it’s thankfully not something I notice. Would that still hold if one made adjustments based on the ratio of men and women? Probably because a) my male colleagues do seem to be the gentle rather than alpha male types, and b) some of the women have got some very strong personalities. And have privilege in other ways.

Also whilst I apologise for the side step, there’s this whole idea that only ND people interrupt. They don’t, NT people interrupt too, just in different ways. That’s very apparent in our meetings.

What's the difference in the way they interrupt?

 

[sojourner]

As I don't care for fragile male egos I often interrupt but I think I'm probably thought of a rude, gobby, northerner. I'm aware it isn't always appropriate. And doesn't make me popular.

This is how I do it too. Turn my own volume up and speak until they shut up. Blunt but mostly effective.

 

[May Kasahara]

I've somehow escaped relatively unscathed on this in the workplace, but my god at university it was awful. They were like peacocks. I recently went to a talk at LSE and it was all women in the very small audience apart from one man, and he brought me right back to student days. Absolutely nothing of value to contribute, just wanted to let everyone in the room know that he knew stuff. Contradicting the very established female lecturer and forcing everyone to listen to his side-tracking pedantry. There has to be some middle path between the male confidence that everyone wants to hear their every observation and the female fear that no one wants to hear anything they have to say.

An excellent and very funny song on this subject.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

What's the difference in the way they interrupt?

Confidence

 

[polly]

An excellent and very funny song on this subject.

Oh I love her but not so much this song, so I've never listened to the words before

 

[kalidarkone]

Thanks Poot wtfftw and RubyToogood how do we interrupt the non stop male teams meet the pub bore the professional male monologuer? There must be ways that aren't rude?

As I don't care for fragile male egos I often interrupt but I think I'm probably thought of a rude, gobby, northerner. I'm aware it isn't always appropriate. And doesn't make me popular.

Same for me but its more a loud Jamaican cultural thing.

 

[May Kasahara]

Funnily enough, I've just been at a writing workshop where some of us stayed on for drinks, and it became more and more apparent how one particular (male, American, mid 30s) participant did nothing but talk about himself. Like, within the workshop obviously everyone was talking about their own experiences and relating them to the topic at hand, but in the pub afterwards he was just banging on endlessly about his work, his relatives, his career and which random celebrities he's met/have read his work, in a way that absolutely did not invite mutual conversation or display curiosity about the other people in the group.

 

[Sue]

Funnily enough, I've just been at a writing workshop where some of us stayed on for drinks, and it became more and more apparent how one particular (male, American, mid 30s) participant did nothing but talk about himself. Like, within the workshop obviously everyone was talking about their own experiences and relating them to the topic at hand, but in the pub afterwards he was just banging on endlessly about his work, his relatives, his career and which ransom celebrities he's met/have read his work, in a way that absolutely did not invite mutual conversation or display curiosity about the other people in the group.

Well he was clearly more interesting than the rest of you put together so y'know...

 

[cesare]

This is how I do it too. Turn my own volume up and speak until they shut up. Blunt but mostly effective.

Or wait till they draw breath and insert something funny or downright rude so you have their attention, fleeting though it may be.