Teenage self-pity has always been a thing. Hell, I had a bucket-load in my youth. Just look at the lyrics of the 90s song Creep, for example — “I’m a creep, I’m a weirdo, what the hell am I doing here?” The thing is, it never remotely crossed my mind to project this self-pity outwards and give shape to it as misogyny. What am I saying here? I’m certainly not saying that this kind of projection is new — it most definitely isn’t. I guess that I’m concerned that it now, however, has a form and organisation that does seem to be of a far newer typology. A systemic and systematic phenomenon that preys on self-doubt.
Feminism and the silencing of women
- Thread starter friendofdorothy
- Start date
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
Yes, I've come across a lot of men with this concern (online). A deep self-loathing, coupled with entitlement (to women's bodies, to women), and angry resentment. It's a very confused mix of anger, hatred, self-loathing wrapped up in misogyny and sexist attacks on women.
Anyway, I'm aware I've veered into talking about incels, which is sort of the opposite of not silencing women. It's focusing on the men. Not about women's voices and concerns being heard.
So I asked my daughter about the latest discussion...which involved talks between the girls and boys but has not been encouraging.granddaughter got into trouble for calling a boy sexist...and was told, by the teacher, not to say mean things. Am on my phone, post party so struggling to write at any length but this is ongoing, angry and I dunno if because its Norfolk, somewhat regressive.
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
Think I might want one of these.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Burn it all to the ground.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Why stop there?
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
Wasn't sure which thread to put this in, but I got this today, thought it would be interesting. It's got good reviews. It was on the book exchange shelf in the doctor's.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Bancroft is great. A real expert in the field.
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
The other day I had to go and talk to some officials at a golf club. On behalf of an organisation I'm involved with.
I expected it to be a bloke I'd be speaking to (golf clubs tending to be more male-run I was guessing), so rather than go alone, I took a male friend along, so he could just be there in the background, while I said my piece. I thought I'd get a better reception with a male presence there also.
As it was, it was a woman I spoke to. The receptionist. She was fine. But I'd geared myself up for 'confrontation' (possibly) with a male official, and didn't expect 'lone woman wanders into a golf club' to really have much impact. I expected an attempt would be made to silence me. The receptionist doesn't ultimately have any say on the issue I went there to discuss, so we shall see what the (male) Chairperson, and the (probably mostly male) committee say in response to the email I've sent them following my visit.
In fact, thinking about it, there already had been an attempt at silencing me. When I mentioned I was going to go and speak to the golf club about this issue, a male acquaintance who's a member there, had already tried to dissuade me, telling me it wouldn't go down well, and I'd get fobbed off. I ignored his advice.
It's really crap this isn't it. That in many instances, you automatically get a better hearing and more attention paid to you if you're male. Not by virtue of anything else. And are more likely to be dismissed/not taken seriously if you're female.
I expected it to be a bloke I'd be speaking to (golf clubs tending to be more male-run I was guessing), so rather than go alone, I took a male friend along, so he could just be there in the background, while I said my piece. I thought I'd get a better reception with a male presence there also.
As it was, it was a woman I spoke to. The receptionist. She was fine. But I'd geared myself up for 'confrontation' (possibly) with a male official, and didn't expect 'lone woman wanders into a golf club' to really have much impact. I expected an attempt would be made to silence me. The receptionist doesn't ultimately have any say on the issue I went there to discuss, so we shall see what the (male) Chairperson, and the (probably mostly male) committee say in response to the email I've sent them following my visit.
In fact, thinking about it, there already had been an attempt at silencing me. When I mentioned I was going to go and speak to the golf club about this issue, a male acquaintance who's a member there, had already tried to dissuade me, telling me it wouldn't go down well, and I'd get fobbed off. I ignored his advice.
It's really crap this isn't it. That in many instances, you automatically get a better hearing and more attention paid to you if you're male. Not by virtue of anything else. And are more likely to be dismissed/not taken seriously if you're female.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
That fact that you had to psych your self up and expected difficulty means it took far more energy than it ought to. A factor that few men have to consider and many are unaware of all that effort.
Did you get no further than reception?
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
There were no officials there that day. She said. And that I'd be best emailing.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Could you clarify pls, you say you went to talk to some officials at the golf club but the only person you seem to have spoken to was the receptionist. Had you had any correspondence with them beforehand? Anyway, I hope your future dealings with them go the way you want
story
Changing the facts
Maybe one of the many reasons that the system prefers women receptionists is because it effectively silences women?
I may be reaching here. But if a woman tries to speak to someone higher up who is likely to be a man, encountering g a woman gatekeeper might make her feel less like fighting her way through?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I thought it was the same reason dewey of dewey decimal fame proposed women working in libraries rather than men, for reasons of paying them less.
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
No. I thought the direct in person approach was my best bet, rather than initial contact by email which would be easier to ignore. I hoped to 'catch them on the hop'. But no one was there unfortunately. And the receptionist was quite an effective gatekeeper. Or just doing her job well.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Cheers - pm incoming
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
Not sure. I had a good go at trying to speak to someone 'higher up', whilst at the same time not wanting to just imply she wasn't important enough to talk to. It was a productive chat though (which I summarised in my follow up email), but like I said, she probably doesn't get to make the decisions.
I thought female receptionists were mostly 'easy on the eye' for the benefit of the menz, originally.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Eldest Q used to be a office temp primarily working as a receptionist more than anything else, she also did some part-time modelling and promotions work at the same time. She told us that her boss at the temp agency (herself another woman) told Eldest to make sure the latter was always on the top line of her CV since it would get her more work than any secretarial skills she might have.
There’s no way that the decision maker has been through this explicit reasoning process but in effect, yes. This is a key reason. It’ll be couched in terms of the individual being “good at conflict de-escalation” or something like that, but mysteriously these competencies will tend to overlap with typically female-socialised characteristics
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
You're saying that decision-makers don't actively recruit female gatekeepers such as GP receptionists at rate of pay that lower skilled gatekeepers typically female earn?
story
Changing the facts
As I said, there are many reasons. Some more obvious than others,
No, I’m saying that they’ll tell themselves that they are happy to recruit people of either gender… just so long as they accept a particular rate of pay and particular working hours and exhibit particular characteristics and competencies and so on. That’s exactly the process that institutionalises the sexism. It becomes depersonalised, and turned into “objective” criteria that oh look just happen to coincide with one group over another
story
Changing the facts
Anorher of the many reasons.
Maybe the gatekeeping factor - if so it be - is just the patriarchal cherry on top of the misogyny cake.
story
Changing the facts
Yes. And then men who do such jobs are variously cast as lesser than their more manly brothers. Making it less likely that men will go after those jobs and round we go again.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I agree. And it feeds into the gender pay scales and audits by which corporation mostly hold themselves clean. But back on the ground professional men recruit women to do their gatekeeping. There's also a class vector because middle class women wave this shit through, for the sale of example, as Women's captain of the golf course etc etc.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
just wanted to put this here. I recall being ignored in meetings only for a man to make the same point and be listened to.
izz
Increased Leisure Citizen
Yup friendofdorothy, 'manrepeating' used to happen in many meetings. Fuckem !
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