Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

[Winot]

but it's also difficult to avoid the conclusion that one consequence of it has been to supress wages, at least in some sectors.

Interesting research reported here, finding it likely that there was some wage suppression for low paid workers, but that it was “relatively small”:

it looked at the period from 1993 to 2017, over which time average earnings for the lowest-paid rose by 55%. Using economic modelling, they estimated that - if there hadn't been European migration into the UK - that rise would have been around 5% higher

 

[andysays]

Interesting research reported here, finding it likely that there was some wage suppression for low paid workers, but that it was “relatively small”:

That's an interesting article, which I don't have time to read properly right now, but I'll try to return to later.

Two initial off the top of my head reactions

1. What seems like a "relatively small" suppression for those compiling the report might not be viewed as relatively small and, by implication, relatively unimportant to those actually experiencing it.

2. That estimate is only (can only) be an estimate, which is acknowledged in the article. And as we've seen recently, estimates in this area can be wildly out. Maybe if the MAC had more accurate figures for the number of EU workers actually here, they might have concluded that the suppression effect was actually greater

 

[Gramsci]

I've lived my whole adult life working alongside immigrants and living in area with lot of immigrants and those whose parents came here so second generation.

I don't make distinction between British workers and immigrant workers in my daily life.

 

[Sue]

I've lived my whole adult life working alongside immigrants and living in area with lot of immigrants and those whose parents came here so second generation.

I'm not sure what your point is. This is surely true for many of us?

 

[flypanam]

Anyway my partner is hoping, if pandemic ends, to visit family in Spain. She's told me she has done the settled status thing. I'm still worried about her coming back to UK. After what happened to Windrush generation I simply don't trust this government or future governments to not backtrack on settled status. Nor do I trust the settled status system to work properly.

Understandable, my wife and I are heading to Canada to see her family for Xmas. She’s coming back ten days after me. She’s practicing finding her details on the gov.Uk site when border officials demand it, which will be stressful.

I think littleseb has had to do this regularly for employers

 

[Gramsci]

I'm not sure what your point is. This is surely true for many of us?

I don't spend my day thinking these immigrants I work and live alongside are suppressing my wages.

Which is what this thread about EU citizens has turned into.

 

[tim]

I don't spend my day thinking these immigrants I work and live alongside are suppressing my wages.

Which is what this thread about EU citizens has turned into.

Exactly, your boss is suppressing your wages not your co-workers.

 

[andysays]

I don't spend my day thinking these immigrants I work and live alongside are suppressing my wages.

Which is what this thread about EU citizens has turned into.

Maybe it would help if you read what people are actually writing on the thread rather than responding to what you imagine they're writing.

 

[The39thStep]

I'm not sure what your point is. This is surely true for many of us?

Often a competition about who lives and works in the most multi cultural area . Add to that being in a remain area and it’s a full house .

 

[Supine]

Maybe it would help if you read what people are actually writing on the thread rather than responding to what you imagine they're writing.

This is a thread about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK. When people talk about wages being suppressed, more EU nationals living here than expected, or capital exploiting foreigners for cheap wages it feeds into the narrative of EU nationals not being welcome.

You and others may not mean to be doing it, but it comes across to me as too many foreigners are affecting your quality of life. It shows a lack of empathy for real people who are negatively affected by the Brexit some urbs have voted for. Just my 2p.

 

[brogdale]

This is a thread about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK. When people talk about wages being suppressed, more EU nationals living here than expected, or capital exploiting foreigners for cheap wages it feeds into the narrative of EU nationals not being welcome.

You and others may not mean to be doing it, but it comes across to me as too many foreigners are affecting your quality of life. It shows a lack of empathy for real people who are negatively affected by the Brexit some urbs have voted for. Just my 2p.

Apologies on my part; I have certainly discussed the government's underestimate of EU27 member nationals living/working in the UK and really didn't think through how that might make fellow posters feel.

FWIW, I was primarily interested in exploring what lay behind the governmental failure and, personally would have liked them not to bother at all. But if they were determined to produce an estimate, it was a pretty shoddy job to be so far out.

 

[klang]

Understandable, my wife and I are heading to Canada to see her family for Xmas. She’s coming back ten days after me. She’s practicing finding her details on the gov.Uk site when border officials demand it, which will be stressful.

I think littleseb has had to do this regularly for employers

takes only a few minutes to get the code to prove settled status, but gets annoying the third time around. i find it astonishing how sloppily my employer's hr seems to deal with such an existential bit of paperwork, considering their workforce is largely made up of non-british nationals.

if I had to prove my status at the uk border i'd find it very difficult as I don't have a functioning smart phone.

 

[Gramsci]

This is a thread about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK. When people talk about wages being suppressed, more EU nationals living here than expected, or capital exploiting foreigners for cheap wages it feeds into the narrative of EU nationals not being welcome.

You and others may not mean to be doing it, but it comes across to me as too many foreigners are affecting your quality of life. It shows a lack of empathy for real people who are negatively affected by the Brexit some urbs have voted for. Just my 2p.

Thanks Supine You've put it better than I could.

 

[The39thStep]

This is a thread about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK. When people talk about wages being suppressed, more EU nationals living here than expected, or capital exploiting foreigners for cheap wages it feeds into the narrative of EU nationals not being welcome.

You and others may not mean to be doing it, but it comes across to me as too many foreigners are affecting your quality of life. It shows a lack of empathy for real people who are negatively affected by the Brexit some urbs have voted for. Just my 2p.

So are you saying that purely because this thread is about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK that the issues you mention ie capital exploiting foreigners for cheap labour should be posted on other threads ?

 

[andysays]

You and others may not mean to be doing it, but it comes across to me as too many foreigners are affecting your quality of life. It shows a lack of empathy for real people who are negatively affected by the Brexit some urbs have voted for. Just my 2p.

Not only do I not mean to do it, I am literally not doing what you've accused me of doing, as demonstrated by your failure to find anything in any of my posts which backs up your previous claim about "sending the foreigners home".

Maybe you should consider the possibility that how it comes across to you may (for perfectly understandable and legitimate reasons) have at least as much to do with you as with what I've actually said.

But just to repeat, although the influx of millions of EU workers into Britain may have enabled the suppression of wages, those EU workers are not responsible or to blame for that. The responsibility lies entirely with the employers who have used that situation to suppress wages, and successive governments who have encouraged them.

And, especially because I too live and work alongside many EU and other non-UK nationals, I have absolutely no desire to send anyone back, I encourage all who wish to stay to use the mechanisms available to do so, and I will support by collective action the rights of those I work with and others to stay if that right is taken away.

But don't try to suggest that we shouldn't discuss this issue because it show a lack of empathy - it's that sort of refusal to listen to people's genuine concerns about some of the effects of such large scale movement that has led us to the divided position we're in now.

 

[ska invita]

So are you saying that purely because this thread is about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK that the issues you mention ie capital exploiting foreigners for cheap labour should be posted on other threads ?

I think the right thread for discussion is one like this one about Protectionism

Protectionism

Considering recent world political events Im curious if anyone has any thoughts about economic protectionism...as an economic policy and inevitably with its relation to nationalism. Seems to me its a policy that divides both the left and the right: On the one hand some parts of 'the right'...

www.urban75.net

...which I wish there was more discussion of (everywhere, not just urban), as it seems the key theoretical issue of the day. Id really like to read a convincing contemporary left-protectionist argument grounded in current conditions. Even old ones are hard to come by.

In short my position matches that put forward on that thread links iirc by Engels and echoed by Militant - protectionism does nothing for the conditions of the global working class. And on balance I think its worse for the wc, as the price of protectionism is Nationalism, and we can see the growing global toxic toll and distortions of nationalism daily, namely leading to neo-fascism and a degradation of democracy.
Conversely freedom of movement creates a folk-internationalism and plurality which eats into the edifices of Nationalism and Conservativism. Its why the far right hate it so much.

I dont particularly care about the British working class, I care about the global working class - that happens to include Britain too of course.

The wage suppression argument in the UK is far from watertight anyhow, on many levels.
Giving up on friends and familiy to live in a foreign country on a minimum wage jobs in an expensive city isnt exactly an aspiration for anyone from the EU. How common is it (or was it)?

Many EU workers work in the state sector - take the NHS for example. There are 50,000 unfilled posts in the NHS perpetually - that doesnt seem to create an increase in wages.
How were wages before free movement from the EU? There was a recession in the early 90s IIRC. How were they in the 30s? In the 1890s? Basically agree with this:

your boss is suppressing your wages not your co-workers.

When people from Oklahama went to California in the 1930s should the left position have been to say go home, Californian jobs for Californian workers? stop driving down our wages?
What about whats best for working class people in, say, post-Communist countries. Is Brexit good or bad for them?

Reaching for nationalist-capitalist market mechanisms as an argument for seemingly progressive state reforms (in this case Brexit) is worse than a cul-de-sac it seems, as it empowers nativism and nationalism. I'm open minded to left arguments for nativist-protectionism but have yet to hear it made convincingly, so remain deeply sceptical.

 

[The39thStep]

Well I’m sure there is a correct thread somewhere , not least the one you’ve set up.
In a broader note what do you think about your fellow remainers on here arguing against the phased removal of tariffs in the Australian deal?

 

[andysays]

I think the right thread for discussion is one like this one about Protectionism

Protectionism

Considering recent world political events Im curious if anyone has any thoughts about economic protectionism...as an economic policy and inevitably with its relation to nationalism. Seems to me its a policy that divides both the left and the right: On the one hand some parts of 'the right'...

www.urban75.net

...which I wish there was more discussion of (everywhere, not just urban), as it seems the key theoretical issue of the day. Id really like to read a convincing contemporary left-protectionist argument grounded in current conditions. Even old ones are hard to come by.

In short my position matches that put forward on that thread links iirc by Engels and echoed by Militant - protectionism does nothing for the conditions of the global working class. And on balance I think its worse for the wc, as the price of protectionism is Nationalism, and we can see the growing global toxic toll and distortions of nationalism daily, namely leading to neo-fascism and a degradation of democracy.
Conversely freedom of movement creates a folk-internationalism and plurality which eats into the edifices of Nationalism and Conservativism. Its why the far right hate it so much.

I dont particularly care about the British working class, I care about the global working class - that happens to include Britain too of course.

The wage suppression argument in the UK is far from watertight anyhow, on many levels.
Giving up on friends and familiy to live in a foreign country on a minimum wage jobs in an expensive city isnt exactly an aspiration for anyone from the EU. How common is it (or was it)?

Many EU workers work in the state sector - take the NHS for example. There are 50,000 unfilled posts in the NHS perpetually - that doesnt seem to create an increase in wages.
How were wages before free movement from the EU? There was a recession in the early 90s IIRC. How were they in the 30s? In the 1890s? Basically agree with this:

When people from Oklahama went to California in the 1930s should the left position have been to say go home, Californian jobs for Californian workers? stop driving down our wages?
What about whats best for working class people in, say, post-Communist countries. Is Brexit good or bad for them?

Reaching for nationalist-capitalist market mechanisms as an argument for seemingly progressive state reforms (in this case Brexit) is worse than a cul-de-sac it seems, as it empowers nativism and nationalism. I'm open minded to left arguments for nativist-protectionism but have yet to hear it made convincingly, so remain deeply sceptical.

You may not mean to be doing it, but this comes across to me* as attempting to dictate the terms of the debate.

Just because someone is concerned about the effects of the large numbers of EU workers in Britain, doesn't mean they're in favour of protectionism, just as it doesn't mean they're in favour of "sending all the foreigners back".

To attempt to push the discussion in this particular direction by suggesting this means, in effect, to deny the lived experience of those with reasonable concerns and the feeling that they have been deliberately lied to about the scale of the issue, especially when it now turns out that the numbers are far higher than were previously acknowledged.

People's concerns have been dismissed for years by telling them the numbers are far less than they think, so the negative effects must be far less than they're claiming, and they must be racist for thinking otherwise.

But guess what? It turns out that the official estimates were wrong (and not just a little bit wrong) all along.

I'm not in favour of protectionism (you suggested that some days ago, on either this thread or a different one, I don't know how seriously), and it's both lazy and dismissive to engage in this sort of nonsense.

* yes, this is a deliberate reference to Supine 's post above.

 

[Gramsci]

So are you saying that purely because this thread is about the fate of EU nationals living in the UK that the issues you mention ie capital exploiting foreigners for cheap labour should be posted on other threads ?

If I get Supine right its the way it has been posted here.

My EU friends/partner and fellow workers are well aware of exploitation. None of them supported Brexit. They also didn't get a vote in the referendum. They were not able to have some say in the Brexit debate which decided their fate. They were excluded.

Now on this thread I follow there have been series of posts of how immigrant workers suppress wages of workers who are British.

Its really really annoying.

I've liked this thread as some of us are personally affected by this. Now its got into immigration I'm pissed off with it.

 

[andysays]

Inspired by discussion on this thread, I spoke today with one of my (Polish) colleagues about their experience around Brexit and getting settled status.

He told me he'd applied ages ago, that he found the process quite simple to get through, and that he got a positive result for him and his (also Polish) wife quite quickly. He also said that he hadn't heard of anyone he knew, either through work or elsewhere who had significant difficulties sorting it out.

He also volunteered the info that he and his wife are currently applying for British passports, which they can have without giving up their Polish passports/citizenship. As I understand it, there's nothing more complicated to this than a normal passport application for a UK national.

Another of our colleagues is from Lithuania, which doesn't allow its citizens to have dual passports, so he (again as I understand it, this is secondhand info) has chosen to retain Lithuanian nationality for himself and his family, which is fair enough.

There are a few other colleagues I'm aware of who may be in similar situations (one Italian, one Slovak) so I'll ask them about their experiences if I get a chance.

 

[Orang Utan]

Very busy today at work with people filling in forms at the last minute. There’s a lot of people who are going to miss out.

 

[zahir]

And so it begins...

Spanish woman in UK for 44 years sacked over post-Brexit rules

Employee in care home, who arrived as an 11-month-old, unable to prove she has right to work in Britain

www.theguardian.com

A Spanish woman who has lived in England for 44 years has been sacked from her job in a care home because she is unable to prove she has the right to work in the UK, in a case illustrating the difficulties experienced by EU nationals as employers grapple with post-Brexit right-to-work regulations.

The 45-year-old woman, who arrived in Britain as an 11-month-old baby and who has never left the country, said she has tried more than 100 times to get through to the Home Office-run helpline in the past three weeks, but has never been able to speak to an adviser.

She has applied for EU settled status, but her application is stuck somewhere in the backlog of over 500,000 cases the Home Office has yet to process. She is the main breadwinner, with two children to support, and said her dismissal has left her struggling to buy food.

 

[ska invita]

And so it begins...

Spanish woman in UK for 44 years sacked over post-Brexit rules

Employee in care home, who arrived as an 11-month-old, unable to prove she has right to work in Britain

www.theguardian.com

The key bit of this story for me is people already in post are being checked for "paperwork" (no actual paperwork has been issued of course) by employers and acting accordingly. The new total border regime in effect

 

[zahir]

The key bit of this story for me is people already in post are being checked for "paperwork" (no actual paperwork has been issued of course) by employers and acting accordingly. The new total border regime in effect

I'm expecting to hear about landlords taking the same approach before long.

 

[ska invita]

I'm expecting to hear about landlords taking the same approach before long.

it was happening already since the referendum result...no reason for these stories to end up in a newspaper though

 

[zahir]

it was happening already since the referendum result...no reason for these stories to end up in a newspaper though

I was thinking of evictions over the immigration status of tenants (or of family or friends staying with tenants). This is going to happen and I expect it will get some publicity.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

The key bit of this story for me is people already in post are being checked for "paperwork" (no actual paperwork has been issued of course) by employers and acting accordingly. The new total border regime in effect

This already happened in the early noughties when fines to employers for employing staff without a "right to work" were introduced.

 

[zahir]

LATEST: Home Office confirms Right to Rent evictions protocol – LandlordZONE

www.landlordzone.co.uk

EEA citizens who have an outstanding, late application to the EU Settlement Scheme (EUSS) and do not have any other form of immigration leave will not be permitted to take up new employment or enter into a new tenancy agreement until they have been granted status under the EUSS.

 

[ska invita]

Landlord Zone ... Words to strike fear into anyone's heart.

 

[Pickman's model]

Landlord Zone ... Words to strike fear into anyone's heart.

i think eviction has that effect too