Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

[Boris Sprinkler]

Census.

Never completed one here. The uk have it on threat of violence don’t they?
But here you can’t do anything without your cpr (like national insurance number), this was given to me when I moved here with a job offer.

 

[Maltin]

Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense now.

I think traditionally the British state has not had the same kind of proclivities as eg France, and there are quite deep rooted feelings about not having to carry ID cards etc (which is not to say that Britain is better or freer, or that authoritarianism isn't manifest in other ways).

I'm still curious about the extent to which other EU countries actively and deliberately collect equivalent info about numbers of workers/residents from other EU countries, because the one vague example anyone has tried to put forward doesn't seem to have held up under even the slightest scrutiny.

In Germany you have to register. I don’t know whether they use it to track other nationals but you are meant to provide your passport as proof of who is registering.

The Anmeldung - How to register your address in Berlin

This guide explains how to do your Anmeldung in Berlin. This is how you register your address, and how you get a Meldebescheinigung and a tax ID.

allaboutberlin.com

 

[tim]

Nah, I lived and worked in France pre-Brexit and went to the doctor, rented a flat, opened a bank account etc just on my UK passport -- never had a carte de sejour though theoretically I was meant to have one.

Me neither, but also got a bank account, probably more easily than I would in the UK

I also spent four years in Italy but was only officially registered for one of them.

 

[tim]

Quite possibly, but I'm always interested when states don't act like you'd expect them to.

What would be your expectations of the British state? ID Cards have always been regarded as suspiciously Continental, haven't they?

 

[brogdale]

What would be your expectations of the British state? ID Cards have always been regarded as suspiciously Continental, haven't they?

ID cards, yes...but I would have expected any state that requiring employers to establish nationality as work eligibility to have established the means to collate that data.

 

[tim]

ID cards, yes...but I would have expected any state that requiring employers to establish nationality as work eligibility to have established the means to collate that data.

The requirement is a box ticking exercise.

I can't imagine any British government being willing to pay Serco or Capita to set up and mismanage such a complicated and pointless monitoring scheme.

 

[ska invita]

why is everyone talking about this? i missed the point

 

[brogdale]

The requirement is a box ticking exercise.

I can't imagine any British government being willing to pay Serco or Capita to set up and mismanage such a complicated and pointless monitoring scheme.

Hence why it looks like the estimate was 50% of the actual number.
Kind of where I came in...

Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

Some interesting details in here https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/19/uk-urges-eu-countries-to-ensure-britons-living-abroad-can-stay-after-brexit Including that the right to permanently remain process for Brits in France will only open for registration in October. Similar worries...

www.urban75.net

 

[andysays]

ID cards, yes...but I would have expected any state that requiring employers to establish nationality as work eligibility to have established the means to collate that data.

OK, here's where I think you're looking at it wrong: employers weren't required to establish nationality, they were required to establish eligibility.

If someone had a passport from any EU country they were eligible. If they weren't eligible, they didn't become an employee.

There was never any requirement for employers to monitor the nationality of their workers, anymore than to monitor the colour of their eyes.

 

[andysays]

Me neither, but also got a bank account, probably more easily than I would in the UK

I also spent four years in Italy but was only officially registered for one of them.

My brother spent a few years living in Barcelona and Milan, working as an English teacher

I'll see if he remembers what he had to do.

 

[brogdale]

OK, here's where I think you're looking at it wrong: employers weren't required to establish nationality, they were required to establish eligibility.

If someone had a passport from any EU country they were eligible. If they weren't eligible, they didn't become an employee.

There was never any requirement for employers to monitor the nationality of their workers, anymore than to monitor the colour of their eyes.

Maybe.
But we are discussing the state’s massive underestimate of the totality of EU member state nationals working in the U.K.

 

[andysays]

Maybe.
But we are discussing the state’s massive underestimate of the totality of EU member state nationals working in the U.K.

So there are maybe two separate things here

1. The fact that accurate numbers were never collected and that any estimating was necessary.

2. The fact that, as recent events have demonstrated, the estimate proved to be so massively wrong.

I'm about to leave for work, but I'll return to the thread later...

 

[Gramsci]

If you wish to understand why Brexit happened, yes.
The OP states 3.5m non-Irish EU citizens in the U.K., that was the official figure. The lived experience of many was that figure was massively under the true figure, which would appear to be around 20% of all working age people in the U.K. The perception was that this huge level of immigration was suppressing wages, every tradesperson saw this, as did everyone working in hospitality. Yet the liberal ‘metropolitan elite’ were saying that this either didn’t matter or was simply not true. The result is that people didn’t trust remain as their stance on this was a bare faced lie, one which could be seen daily by millions with their own eyes and depleted wage packets. So they voted leave.

Whether that matters to you or not is your call.

My partner is one of those who came here to "suppress" my wages according to you.

You are talking about people I've worked with for years and also the special person in my life.

 

[andysays]

My partner is one of those who came here to "suppress" my wages according to you.

You are talking about people I've worked with for years and also the special person in my life.

I don't think anyone here on Urban is suggesting that your partner or anyone else came here wanting or planning to suppress wages.

They came here, perfectly reasonably, because they were able to do so, quite possibly because they could earn more money here than in their country of origin, and possibly because they wanted the experience of working in Britain. All of that is perfectly legitimate, but it's also difficult to avoid the conclusion that one consequence of it has been to supress wages, at least in some sectors.

And if it now turns out that there are/were actually about double the number of EU workers in the UK that previous estimates suggested, it become even harder to deny the argument that it's suppressed wages, and that that was the main reason the employer class in the UK was so in favour of FoM, and of expanding the EU to include poorer eastern states.

 

[Supine]

I don't think anyone here on Urban is suggesting that your partner or anyone else came here wanting or planning to suppress wages.

They came here, perfectly reasonably, because they were able to do so, quite possibly because they could earn more money here than in their country of origin, and possibly because they wanted the experience of working in Britain. All of that is perfectly legitimate, but it's also difficult to avoid the conclusion that one consequence of it has been to supress wages, at least in some sectors.

And if it now turns out that there are/were actually about double the number of EU workers in the UK that previous estimates suggested, it become even harder to deny the argument that it's suppressed wages, and that that was the main reason the employer class in the UK was so in favour of FoM, and of expanding the EU to include poorer eastern states.

so no empathy then? Send the foreigners home and hope that labour shortages might just put your pay up.

 

[andysays]

so no empathy then? Send the foreigners home and hope that labour shortages might just put your pay up.

Please highlight the bit of my post where I said we should send anyone home

 

[The39thStep]

so no empathy then? Send the foreigners home and hope that labour shortages might just put your pay up.

The only foreigners , and this applies not just in the U.K. but also across the EU, who are going home are those that don’t fill in the paperwork for the country they wish to reside or work in or who don’t want to fill in the paperwork.
There are some posters on here who have double standards , ie if it’s a Brit abroad they are too arrogant and thick to do the paperwork and actually the EU is the victim , if it’s an EU citizen in the U.K. it’s because they are decent hardworking and therefore they are a victim .

 

[Gramsci]

I don't think anyone here on Urban is suggesting that your partner or anyone else came here wanting or planning to suppress wages.

They came here, perfectly reasonably, because they were able to do so, quite possibly because they could earn more money here than in their country of origin, and possibly because they wanted the experience of working in Britain. All of that is perfectly legitimate, but it's also difficult to avoid the conclusion that one consequence of it has been to supress wages, at least in some sectors.

And if it now turns out that there are/were actually about double the number of EU workers in the UK that previous estimates suggested, it become even harder to deny the argument that it's suppressed wages, and that that was the main reason the employer class in the UK was so in favour of FoM, and of expanding the EU to include poorer eastern states.

It this kind of comment that upsets my friends and workmates from EU countries. Your in effect saying you would like to see the back of them.

Can't say any of my EU friends who've been here for at least several years supported Brexit. But then they didn't get a say in it.

 

[Gramsci]

Anyway my partner is hoping, if pandemic ends, to visit family in Spain. She's told me she has done the settled status thing. I'm still worried about her coming back to UK. After what happened to Windrush generation I simply don't trust this government or future governments to not backtrack on settled status. Nor do I trust the settled status system to work properly.

 

[brogdale]

The only foreigners , and this applies not just in the U.K. but also across the EU, who are going home are those that don’t fill in the paperwork for the country they wish to reside or work in or who don’t want to fill in the paperwork.
There are some posters on here who have double standards , ie if it’s a Brit abroad they are too arrogant and thick to do the paperwork and actually the EU is the victim , if it’s an EU citizen in the U.K. it’s because they are decent hardworking and therefore they are a victim .

No figures to back this up but, anecdotally from news reporting over the last 5 years, there has been coverage of EU member state nationals choosing to leave the UK for reasons other than failure to apply for settled status. Some have explained their decision based upon no longer feeling comfortable or welcome and fear or experience of racism/discrimination.

That said, I agree that we should strive to avoid double standards and demonising UK expats, but there is a distinction between them and EU nationals living/working in the UK and that was the ability to vote in the referendum causing the changed status.

 

[The39thStep]

No figures to back this up but, anecdotally from news reporting over the last 5 years, there has been coverage of EU member state nationals choosing to leave the UK for reasons other than failure to apply for settled status. Some have explained their decision based upon no longer feeling comfortable or welcome and fear or experience of racism/discrimination.

That said, I agree that we should strive to avoid double standards and demonising UK expats, but there is a distinction between them and EU nationals living/working in the UK and that was the ability to vote in the referendum causing the changed status.

I’m sure that’s the case sometimes for migrant labour but it doesn’t tell the full story at all . On the positive side it’s great to see the take up of residency schemes both in the U.K. and in the EU .

 

[brogdale]

I’m sure that’s the case sometimes for migrant labour but it doesn’t tell the full story at all . On the positive side it’s great to see the take up of residency schemes both in the U.K. and in the EU .

That's fair, but I didn't suggest it was the full story; I was just responding to your assertion that "The only foreigners...who are going home are those that don’t fill in the paperwork for the country they wish to reside or work in or who don’t want to fill in the paperwork."

 

[The39thStep]

That's fair, but I didn't suggest it was the full story; I was just responding to your assertion that "The only foreigners...who are going home are those that don’t fill in the paperwork for the country they wish to reside or work in or who don’t want to fill in the paperwork."

If you re read the post I was replying to you’ll find the context .

 

[brogdale]

If you re read the post I was replying to you’ll find the context .

I was just suggesting that what you were asserting did not accord with anecdotal reporting I had heard.

 

[The39thStep]

I was just suggesting that what you were asserting did not accord with anecdotal reporting I had heard.

Long live anecdotal reporting

 

[brogdale]

Long live anecdotal reporting

I'd concede the weakness of that if you were backing your assertion with anything other than opinion.

 

[Supine]

Long live anecdotal reporting

You can have some real evidence if anecdotal isn’t enough

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/jotwpublic-prod-storage-1cxo1dnrmkg14/uploads/sites/4/2021/05/IMA-report-European-citizens-concerns-after-Brexit-1.pdf

 

[The39thStep]

You can have some real evidence if anecdotal isn’t enough

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/jotwpublic-prod-storage-1cxo1dnrmkg14/uploads/sites/4/2021/05/IMA-report-European-citizens-concerns-after-Brexit-1.pdf

Thanks I’ll read that tomorrow

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

anectdotal:
wish I could go visit my mum back in france once it is pandemiacally allowed
worried I'll get dragged into some barracks for checks for hours on end on the way back in here

Spoiler

maybe I am a bit paranoid

 

[andysays]

It this kind of comment that upsets my friends and workmates from EU countries. Your in effect saying you would like to see the back of them.

Can't say any of my EU friends who've been here for at least several years supported Brexit. But then they didn't get a say in it.

OK, I'm sorry you feel that way, and I hope I understand why, but you're actually misunderstanding what I and others are saying.

No one here has posted that we wanted to see the back of your partner or any of the other EU workers currently here.

And as we know, there is a mechanism for all EU workers who wish to remain in Britain to do so. 5.6 million people have currently applied, according to the story which has sparked this recent discussion, because the number who have applied is far greater than the previous estimate of how many were actually here.

I hope your partner is one of them, and that they are successful in getting settled status, if that's what they want, just as I hope that all of the other 5.6 million get it.

ETA and I see from your later post that she has applied for settled status, though you don't make clear if it's been granted yet. I'm glad for you both and I hope that means you can continue your life together with a bit less of the stress and uncertain this situation must have caused you.