Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

[ska invita]

Some interesting details in here

UK urges EU countries to ensure Britons living abroad can stay after Brexit

Government launches multimillion pound campaign to reach 1m British citizens in EU

www.theguardian.com

Including that the right to permanently remain process for Brits in France will only open for registration in October.

Similar worries about people falling through the cracks, especially the elderly

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

some good news I think in the figures published today

Scheme for EU citizens to stay in UK draws 3.4m applications

Government close to target figure, but researchers still fear citizens may be missed out

www.theguardian.com

more than i was expecting considering earlier numbers and looming brexit deadlines

though that is still at least 400,000 not applied < still a massive number
and they've got that number by not giving 41% of applicants the 5 years settled status, whether they should've had it or not, so still insecurities to come

Applied the day after that post and finally got my positive reply just now, so with lockdown delays only 3 months and 1 week.

 

[ska invita]

Whats interesting about the stories of EU citizens being hassled, detained and even taken to detention centres is this comment:

Colin Yeo, an immigration barrister and author of the Free Movement blog, said: “This is just how borders work and this has been happening to everyone else from outside the EU and is now just being applied to EU citizens.

UK like an ‘enemy state’ to EU nationals detained by Border Force

Confused over regulations, Home Office border staff meet legitimate visitors and workers with suspicion

www.theguardian.com

...except we're talking about people - over 4 million - who have been given some kind of "settled status" in the UK but can't prove it. Seems that there is no register for Border Control to even check who is on that register? Incredible if that is the case.

Among the other cases is that of Antonio, a Spanish airline worker who was made to wait for 45 minutes at Gatwick while border officials tried to decide if he was lying when he told them he had pre-settled status.

He said: “My passport was not associated with the settled status. When I told them that is because I applied using my ID card which was perfectly acceptable to the Home Office, they told me that ID cards are no longer acceptable at the border.”

Suggests maybe they can look it up eventaully, only if you applied using a passport as ID. ??

At the moment no one is even travelling because of Covid restrictions. This better be teething problems, but with the May-Patel tag team in charge....

 

[klang]

Whats interesting about the stories of EU citizens being hassled, detained and even taken to detention centres is this comment:

UK like an ‘enemy state’ to EU nationals detained by Border Force

Confused over regulations, Home Office border staff meet legitimate visitors and workers with suspicion

www.theguardian.com

...except we're talking about people - over 4 million - who have been given some kind of "settled status" in the UK but can't prove it. Seems that there is no register for Border Control to even check who is on that register? Incredible if that is the case.


Suggests maybe they can look it up eventaully, only if you applied using a passport as ID. ??

At the moment no one is even travelling because of Covid restrictions. This better be teething problems, but with the May-Patel tag team in charge....

Yesterday I had to prove my settled status for the third time to a company I do occ work for. Mainly the company's fault as their HR keeps fucking up / losing data, and only takes five minutes to get the code to prove the status, but still, it's a faff, and it's not nice to get periodic threatening emails. 3 times in the last 6 months ffs.
I've been working for this company for 20 years.

 

[ska invita]

Time to bump this thread with a week or so to go...

130,000 EU citizens on UK benefits yet to apply for settled status, leak suggests

Scheme closes in nine days, with many still at risk of losing access to healthcare, jobs and homes

www.theguardian.com

Scary figure, suggests real numbers affected much bigger (as won't be claiming)

eta
worth adding some 300,000 have applied but havent been given a status in time
IIRC 3 million + havent been given the shitter no-benefits pre-settled status

 

[T & P]

The true ugliness of how this country’s government (and tragically, growing segments of the population) have come to view and treat decent, law-abiding, positive contribution-making foreign nationals in this country since the Brexit referendum is becoming more apparent by the day

EU citizens in UK face 28-day notice if they miss settled status deadline

Tens of thousands to be issued with warnings to submit applications for post-Brexit scheme or risk losing rights

www.theguardian.com

Things will undoubtedly only get worse for many EU nationals and their families, as well as British nationals living in the Continent. I know right wing Brexiteers don’t give a flying fuck about foreigners in the first place, but I hope all those left wing people who saw fit to vote Leave will eventually start considering whether the symbolic and ultimately pointless black eye they gave to the big bad EU was really worth significantly fucking up the lives and wellbeing of millions of ordinary, decent people across Europe. Not to mention removing the right of freely move to, settle in and work across an entire continent from countless millions of present and future British citizens- a right that most other people on Earth could only dream of.

But hey, I’m sure it was all worth it.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Time to bump this thread with a week or so to go...

130,000 EU citizens on UK benefits yet to apply for settled status, leak suggests

Scheme closes in nine days, with many still at risk of losing access to healthcare, jobs and homes

www.theguardian.com

Scary figure, suggests real numbers affected much bigger (as won't be claiming)

eta
worth adding some 300,000 have applied but havent been given a status in time
IIRC 3 million + havent been given the shitter no-benefits pre-settled status

That article states that there are 820,000 EU citizens in the U.K. in receipt of benefits. That is excluding Irish nationals. And whilst a large chunk the 820k will be in receipt of child benefit and nothing more, articles such as this are not going to dissuade many people that Brexit is a good idea.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

How many more EU nationals in UK than previously thought?

5.6 million (non-Irish) applications in so far, almost double the figure of the official estimate of how many EU citizens were living in the U.K.

We are often told that EU citizens have fled the U.K. since Brexit, if that is true then how many were living here before June 2016?

 

[Supine]

We are often told that EU citizens have fled the U.K. since Brexit, if that is true then how many were living here before June 2016?

Does it matter?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Does it matter?

If you wish to understand why Brexit happened, yes.
The OP states 3.5m non-Irish EU citizens in the U.K., that was the official figure. The lived experience of many was that figure was massively under the true figure, which would appear to be around 20% of all working age people in the U.K. The perception was that this huge level of immigration was suppressing wages, every tradesperson saw this, as did everyone working in hospitality. Yet the liberal ‘metropolitan elite’ were saying that this either didn’t matter or was simply not true. The result is that people didn’t trust remain as their stance on this was a bare faced lie, one which could be seen daily by millions with their own eyes and depleted wage packets. So they voted leave.

Whether that matters to you or not is your call.

 

[brogdale]

How many more EU nationals in UK than previously thought?

5.6 million (non-Irish) applications in so far, almost double the figure of the official estimate of how many EU citizens were living in the U.K.

We are often told that EU citizens have fled the U.K. since Brexit, if that is true then how many were living here before June 2016?

If correct, we can be certain of one thing; the UK's hollowed out, neoliberal state was incapable to recognising and recording the entry of EU citizens into the country, labour market or welfare system.

 

[Spymaster]

If correct, we can be certain of one thing; the UK's hollowed out, neoliberal state was incapable to recognising and recording the entry of EU citizens into the country, labour market or welfare system.

Yes, but that was as a result of adhering to a set of circumstances imposed by EU membership.

#benefitsofbrexit

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If correct, we can be certain of one thing; the UK's hollowed out, neoliberal state was incapable to recognising and recording the entry of EU citizens into the country, labour market or welfare system.

The system was purposefully set up to be unable to do that.

 

[brogdale]

Yes, but that was as a result of adhering to a set of circumstances imposed by EU membership.

#benefitsofbrexit

Interesting response.
I wasn't aware that the FoM provisions precluded member states from recording nationalities of those entering the workforce/welfare system, but if you know better, I'll stand corrected.

 

[brogdale]

For instance, last year the Commons Library produced this report on NHS staff and appeared to present the figure of 67k of workers that were nationals of other EU member states. If that were possible, why not across the wider economy?

 

[Yossarian]

That article states that there are 820,000 EU citizens in the U.K. in receipt of benefits. That is excluding Irish nationals. And whilst a large chunk the 820k will be in receipt of child benefit and nothing more, articles such as this are not going to dissuade many people that Brexit is a good idea.

5.6 million (non-Irish) applications in so far, almost double the figure of the official estimate of how many EU citizens were living in the U.K.

Big question there is why only a relatively small proportion of EU residents in the UK seem to be collecting the benefits they're entitled to - the government clearly needs to do more to reach out to these people.

 

[andysays]

If correct, we can be certain of one thing; the UK's hollowed out, neoliberal state was incapable to recognising and recording the entry of EU citizens into the country, labour market or welfare system.

I get the point you're making about the hollowed out nature of the neoliberalism state but, in addition to Spymaster's point, isn't it actually the case that there was no way of keeping meaningful records, because the whole notion of "free movement" means that people originating in one EU country could work in any other country in exactly the same way as citizens of that country, without being on a list?

So any idea of numbers could only ever be an estimate, was always likely to be an underestimate, and was in fact open to deliberate manipulation if the government saw such manipulation as in its interests and in the interests of capital.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Big question there is why only a relatively small proportion of EU residents in the UK seem to be collecting the benefits they're entitled to - the government clearly needs to do more to reach out to these people.

Quite probably, my step mum collects her UK pension, guess many of the >5million either are too young for pensions, don't have kids, or don't have kids in the UK (even though AFAIK they can claim CB for kids not in the UK).

 

[Raheem]

I get the point you're making about the hollowed out nature of the neoliberalism state but, in addition to Spymaster's point, isn't it actually the case that there was no way of keeping meaningful records, because the whole notion of "free movement" means that people originating in one EU country could work in any other country in exactly the same way as citizens of that country, without being on a list?

That's not how it works in France or Italy, for example.

 

[Flavour]

Interesting response.
I wasn't aware that the FoM provisions precluded member states from recording nationalities of those entering the workforce/welfare system, but if you know better, I'll stand corrected.

Member States all have their own regimes regarding the registration of foreign nationals, the UK has always been particularly lax in this regard (no ID card for example), whereas in countries like France, Germany, Italy they are mandatory if you want to do basically anything (have a doctor, buy a car, rent a house in your own name, etc)

 

[brogdale]

I get the point you're making about the hollowed out nature of the neoliberalism state but, in addition to Spymaster's point, isn't it actually the case that there was no way of keeping meaningful records, because the whole notion of "free movement" means that people originating in one EU country could work in any other country in exactly the same way as citizens of that country, without being on a list?

So any idea of numbers could only ever be an estimate, was always likely to be an underestimate, and was in fact open to deliberate manipulation if the government saw such manipulation as in its interests and in the interests of capital.

tbh, I don't really know if what you're saying there is correct or not...that's why I invited anyone with more concrete knowledge about how/why this gap in the state's information occurred.

I understand FoM but don't really know why that might have made recording of (EU member state ) nationality impossible. Certainly the NHS appeared to have an, on the face of it, accurate number of 67k employees from the 27 according to the link I put above.

 

[Spymaster]

tbh, I don't really know if what you're saying there is correct or not...that's why I invited anyone with more concrete knowledge about how/why this gap in the state's information occurred.

I understand FoM but don't really know why that might have made recording of (EU member state ) nationality impossible. Certainly the NHS appeared to have an, on the face of it, accurate number of 67k employees from the 27 according to the link I put above.

FoM required people to be able to cross borders with no (or few) cumpulsory checks or records, so any records made would have to be based on them supplying information that they weren't legally required to, especially if they weren't claiming benefits or using the NHS. If people just came over, got a cash in hand job and rented somewhere to live, how would the government know where they were from?

 

[Flavour]

FoM required people to be able to cross borders with no cumpulsory checks or records, so any records made would have to be based on them supplying information that they weren't legally required to, especially if they weren't claiming benefits or using the NHS. If people just came over, got a cash in hand job and rented somewhere to live, how would the government know where they were from?

The point is that getting a cash in hand job and renting somewhere without being on any state register is/was easier in the UK than in most other Euro countries and this has nothing to do with the EU

 

[Spymaster]

The point is that getting a cash in hand job and renting somewhere without being on any state register is/was easier in the UK than in most other Euro countries and this has nothing to do with the EU

Only to a point. If the UK was not in the EU, as now, checks would have been made and records taken (visa issuances) on entry. Membership of the EU has hugely increased the number of 'unknown foreign nationals' living in the country.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The point is that getting a cash in hand job and renting somewhere without being on any state register is/was easier in the UK than in most other Euro countries and this has nothing to do with the EU

Only to a point. If the UK was not in the EU, as now, checks would have been made and records taken (vias issuances) on entry. Membership of the EU has hugely increased the number of 'unknown foreign nationals' living in the country.

When FOM first came in we had that nice Mr Blair in charge, and he took time off from slaughtering Arabs to rush through FOM in to the UK with minimal checks as he wanted the £'s that he could see were to be made by exploiting the poorest workers from the EU. France, Italy, Germany, Spain etc. all held back from even allowing FOM for about 18 months and when they did there were systems in place to check on who was in the country.

 

[Flavour]

Didn't FOM come in in 1992 with Maastricht? Hadn't remembered it was Blair

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Didn't FOM come in in 1992 with Maastricht? Hadn't remembered it was Blair

It was Maastricht that set it in motion, it only came in properly in 2001.

 

[brogdale]

FoM required people to be able to cross borders with no (or few) cumpulsory checks or records, so any records made would have to be based on them supplying information that they weren't legally required to, especially if they weren't claiming benefits or using the NHS. If people just came over, got a cash in hand job and rented somewhere to live, how would the government know where they were from?

Not sure that's right, tbh.
I certainly remember having to show employers my passport (as eligibility to work) as far back as 2007 ish.
Perhaps the Uk state never got round to implementing a system by which they could collate that eligibility data?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Not sure that's right, tbh.
I certainly remember having to show employers my passport (as eligibility to work) as far back as 2007 ish.
Perhaps the Uk state never got round to implementing a system by which they could collate that eligibility data?

An employer didn't have to do anything with the passport though, it was an arse-covering thing in case the worker came from somewhere not in the EU and therefore not worthy of working within the EU.

 

[brogdale]

An employer didn't have to do anything with the passport though, it was an arse-covering thing in case the worker came from somewhere not in the EU and therefore not worthy of working within the EU.

Yes; I suppose the crux is was that due to the hollowed state (not bothering) or edict from the supra-state preventing it?