Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yes; I suppose the crux is was that due to the hollowed state (not bothering) or edict from the supra-state preventing it?

Six of one etc., of course the UK being quite influential in setting the pace of the EU.

 

[Spymaster]

Not sure that's right, tbh.
I certainly remember having to show employers my passport (as eligibility to work) as far back as 2007 ish.
Perhaps the Uk state never got round to implementing a system by which they could collate that eligibility data?

"Cash-in-hand" being the operative term there. There'll be shitloads of EU people here effectively working illegally, then a load more who aren't working at all, etc etc ...

Not sure why you're finding it so difficult to accept that EU membership has directly contibuted to fuckloads of people being here that the government know little or nothing about.

 

[brogdale]

"Cash-in-hand" being the operative term there. There'll be shitloads of EU people here effectively working illegally, then a load more who aren't working at all, etc etc ...

Not sure why you're finding it so difficult to accept that EU membership has directly contibuted to fuckloads of people being here that the government know little or nothing about.

I have no problem accepting that supra-state membership and its FoM resulted in citizens of other member states legally having the right to live and work in the UK. My questioning is why the UK state had, apparently, so little grasp on the scale of the immigration.

 

[brogdale]

Six of one etc., of course the UK being quite influential in setting the pace of the EU.

I can see why it was in the interest of neoliberal capital not to make the scale known.

 

[andysays]

That's not how it works in France or Italy, for example.

Maybe you could give us some detail about how it works in France or Italy, for example.

 

[Dystopiary]

Big question there is why only a relatively small proportion of EU residents in the UK seem to be collecting the benefits they're entitled to - the government clearly needs to do more to reach out to these people.

There are a lot of British citizens within the UK who aren't collecting the benefits they're entitled to. The benefits system has become so hostile and difficult.

The forgotten unemployed: 300,000 jobless Britons not claiming benefits

That's from over 3 years ago, and doesn't include sick and disability benefits, which are very difficult to get.

I don't want to take this off topic, just to point out that it could be part of a wider problem with the benefit system.

 

[Dystopiary]

dp

 

[andysays]

Not sure that's right, tbh.
I certainly remember having to show employers my passport (as eligibility to work) as far back as 2007 ish.
Perhaps the Uk state never got round to implementing a system by which they could collate that eligibility data?

This is my recollection as well.

As far as I remember, potential employees were required to prove they had the legal right to work in the UK, which would most often be by showing a passport of any EU (or other qualifying) country.

As far as the (potential) employer was concerned, there was no difference between a UK passport and, say, a Polish passport. There was no need for employers to keep records of how many UK employees they had, how many Polish employees etc. (In fact, some people would probably argue it would be discriminatory to keep such info).

Other countries may have different systems*, such as ID cards, which allow them to collect and compile such info. I've never worked in another EU country, so don't have any experience to offer.

But EU rules around FoM definitely don't/didn't require such info to be collected.

ETA *different pre-existing systems

 

[andysays]

An employer didn't have to do anything with the passport though, it was an arse-covering thing in case the worker came from somewhere not in the EU and therefore not worthy of working within the EU.

Again, as far as I remember, they take a photo or scan for the records in case it's needed in future, and then tick the box to say that some valid evidence has been seen.

 

[brogdale]

This is my recollection as well.

As far as I remember, potential employees were required to prove they had the legal right to work in the UK, which would most often be by showing a passport of any EU (or other qualifying) country.

As far as the (potential) employer was concerned, there was no difference between a UK passport and, say, a Polish passport. There was no need for employers to keep records of how many UK employees they had, how many Polish employees etc. (In fact, some people would probably argue it would be discriminatory to keep such info).

Other countries may have different systems*, such as ID cards, which allow them to collect and compile such info. I've never worked in another EU country, so don't have any experience to offer.

But EU rules around FoM definitely don't/didn't require such info to be collected.

ETA *different pre-existing systems

Yep.
Just that when the state was the employer, as in the NHS, they appear to have had the figures all along. That suggests that there was no prohibition against collating the data from employers. More likely that successive neoliberal governments decided not to burden capital with the bother or themselves with the administration.

 

[andysays]

Yep.
Just that when the state was the employer, as in the NHS, they appear to have had the figures all along. That suggests that there was no prohibition against collating the data from employers. More likely that successive neoliberal governments decided not to burden capital with the bother or themselves with the administration.

Reading the report you linked to, it's unclear (at least to me) whether that info was routinely collected and regularly updated by the NHS, or whether it was deliberately collected as a snapshot picture for a one-off reason like finding out how many staff were EU nationals and might be directly affected by rule changes as a result of Brexit.

 

[brogdale]

Reading the report you linked to, it's unclear (at least to me) whether that info was routinely collected and regularly updated by the NHS, or whether it was deliberately collected as a snapshot picture for a one-off reason like finding out how many staff were EU nationals and might be directly affected by rule changes as a result of Brexit.

Fair point; I hadn't considered that.

 

[Raheem]

Maybe you could give us some detail about how it works in France or Italy, for example.

To work legally in France, you have to register with your town hall within X days of arrival. They give you a form to fill in with a the details the President might want to know about you.

 

[brogdale]

Fair point; I hadn't considered that.

Looks like they certainly had the NHS workforce nationality data back in June 2016, (when we were an EU member state), so a slightly unclear, evolving picture, rather than a single snapshot, maybe?

 

[andysays]

To work legally in France, you have to register with your town hall within X days of arrival. They give you a form to fill in with a the details the President might want to know about you.

I'm aware of the existance that, if not the detail; it was something that was discussed when the whole ID card thing was an issue in the UK.

As far as I know, that's a long standing French tradition, and there's a similarly long standing tradition in Britain that we don't have to carry ID cards, register our residence at the local town hall etc.

But given a diversity of tradition and practice across various EU countries, it seems reasonable to assume that, unless there were specific EU laws requiring standardisation of such practices, each country would continue to operate its traditional system.

(as an aside, it might be interesting to know if such standardisation was ever proposed, and if so, by whom, and to what extent it was opposed)

 

[andysays]

Looks like they certainly had the NHS workforce nationality data back in June 2016, (when we were an EU member state), so a slightly unclear, evolving picture, rather than a single snapshot, maybe?

View attachment 274945

It says "recorded" EU nationality.

Given the date of June 2016, I'm going to suggest it's at least possible that they began to focus more attention on this question as a direct result of the referendum result, and that's at least part of the reason why the numbers have gone up - at least some of them are not new people, they're previously uncounted people.

 

[Raheem]

But given a diversity of tradition and practice across various EU countries, it seems reasonable to assume that, unless there were specific EU laws requiring standardisation of such practices, each country would continue to operate its traditional system.

Not necessarily. Each country operates the system of it it choosing, which is why this statement was wrong:

there was no way of keeping meaningful records, because the whole notion of "free movement" means that people originating in one EU country could work in any other country in exactly the same way as citizens of that country, without being on a list

 

[andysays]

Not necessarily. Each country operates the system of it it choosing, which is why this statement was wrong:

OK, I'll change my previous statement to "without EU rules relating to FoM meaning that they have to be on a list, although if member states have pre-existing practices involving keeping such lists, we won't now prohibit them from doing so".

This was what I originally meant, but I obviously should have taken into account the general Urban tendency to quibble and nit-pick given even the slightest opportunity.

Happy?

 

[Raheem]

No, cos it's not even grammatical now and I can't understand it.

Maybe we can just say that whether or not individual EU countries keep lists of foreigners is up to them, is unaffected by rules on freedom of movement, and they can stop or start doing it anytime they like. That would be accurate.

 

[Sue]

Member States all have their own regimes regarding the registration of foreign nationals, the UK has always been particularly lax in this regard (no ID card for example), whereas in countries like France, Germany, Italy they are mandatory if you want to do basically anything (have a doctor, buy a car, rent a house in your own name, etc)

Nah, I lived and worked in France pre-Brexit and went to the doctor, rented a flat, opened a bank account etc just on my UK passport -- never had a carte de sejour though theoretically I was meant to have one.

 

[Sue]

To work legally in France, you have to register with your town hall within X days of arrival. They give you a form to fill in with a the details the President might want to know about you.

No idea about now but in pre-Brexit days, I certainly didn't have to do this and neither did anyone i know. And I was there working legally.

 

[Pickman's model]

Only to a point. If the UK was not in the EU, as now, checks would have been made and records taken (visa issuances) on entry. Membership of the EU has hugely increased the number of 'unknown foreign nationals' living in the country.

You, for example

 

[The39thStep]

If correct, we can be certain of one thing; the UK's hollowed out, neoliberal state was incapable to recognising and recording the entry of EU citizens into the country, labour market or welfare system.

Some posters on here would have threatened self immolation in protest of recording EU nationals data

 

[Spymaster]

Some posters on here would have threatened self immolation in protest of recording EU nationals data

Absolutely!

 

[brogdale]

Some posters on here would have threatened self immolation in protest of recording EU nationals data

Quite possibly, but I'm always interested when states don't act like you'd expect them to.

 

[andysays]

Quite possibly, but I'm always interested when states don't act like you'd expect them to.

I think I'm slightly losing the thread of this conversation now.

Which state(s) isn't (aren't) acting in the way you'd expect and in what way(s)?

 

[brogdale]

I think I'm slightly losing the thread of this conversation now.

Which state(s) isn't (aren't) acting in the way you'd expect and in what way(s)?

I expect states to have authoritarian proclivities towards enumeration, calibration, recording and data collection. When they don't, and get the estimation of EU nationals in the workforce wrong by 50%, I'm quite interested to explore why and in who's interests that failure was.

 

[Raheem]

No idea about now but in pre-Brexit days, I certainly didn't have to do this and neither did anyone i know. And I was there working legally.

I went on Google to let you know what French immigration would say about that, but it turns out they actually made the carte de séjour non-compulsory over a decade ago, which I didn't know. There's still things you need it for, though.

Don't think it kills the basic point, though, because France was no less in the EU ten years ago, and residence permits in Italy, for instance, do seem to be still mandatory for EU citizens.

Maybe the weirdest thing is thinking it would be such a great thing to make lists of foreigners in the first place.

 

[Sue]

I went on Google to let you know what French immigration would say about that, but it turns out they actually made the carte de séjour non-compulsory over a decade ago, which I didn't know. There's still things you need it for, though.

Don't think it kills the basic point, though, because France was no less in the EU ten years ago, and residence permits in Italy, for instance, do seem to be still mandatory for EU citizens.

Maybe the weirdest thing is thinking it would be such a great thing to make lists of foreigners in the first place.

Like what? Admittedly, I never hired a car (I don't drive) but I certainly did all the other everyday stuff -- like working, paying taxes, renting a flat (paperwork was done with the landlady's notaire), going to the doctor, being treated in hospital -- and was never asked for it. And this was more than 10 years ago too.

 

[andysays]

I expect states to have authoritarian proclivities towards enumeration, calibration, recording and data collection. When they don't, and get the estimation of EU nationals in the workforce wrong by 50%, I'm quite interested to explore why and in who's interests that failure was.

Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense now.

I think traditionally the British state has not had the same kind of proclivities as eg France, and there are quite deep rooted feelings about not having to carry ID cards etc (which is not to say that Britain is better or freer, or that authoritarianism isn't manifest in other ways).

I'm still curious about the extent to which other EU countries actively and deliberately collect equivalent info about numbers of workers/residents from other EU countries, because the one vague example anyone has tried to put forward doesn't seem to have held up under even the slightest scrutiny.