Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

[collectordave]

You know I'm talking about the result of the referendum vote, which we are told repeatedly is the "will of the people."

Not the will of the prople again!

The slightly larger minority that voted for Brexit versus the smaller minority that voted to remain and the majority that did not vote, seems to me the "Will Of The People" is not really known.

In my naive opinion I feel that MPs we have elected would operate in the best interests of the country not as I seem to have started believing in their own interest.

I have had a dream where anyone standing for election to parliament has to face a test designed to see if they are "self centered prats" or genuinly interested in seeing Britain being governed in Britains interest.

For the life of me though i cannot think of any questions to put in the test. Of course it would have to go before parliament to be voted in as well. It would be an opportunity to laugh at the antics of British politicians, I wonder how such a vote would go?

 

[danny la rouge]

Not the will of the prople again!

The slightly larger minority that voted for Brexit versus the smaller minority that voted to remain and the majority that did not vote, seems to me the "Will Of The People" is not really known.

In my naive opinion I feel that MPs we have elected would operate in the best interests of the country not as I seem to have started believing in their own interest.

I have had a dream where anyone standing for election to parliament has to face a test designed to see if they are "self centered prats" or genuinly interested in seeing Britain being governed in Britains interest.

For the life of me though i cannot think of any questions to put in the test. Of course it would have to go before parliament to be voted in as well. It would be an opportunity to laugh at the antics of British politicians, I wonder how such a vote would go?

You are labouring under the misapprehension that it is the role of parliament to represent the interests of the people. It isn’t. It is the role of parliament to represent the interests of property, in particular capital.

Therefore anyone who gets sucked into the machine gets co-opted to those ends. People who go there with the best of intentions soon find out “the realities”, and “realpolitik”, and procedure all mean they can’t do those “naive” things they initially hoped.

Expecting parliament to represent the interests of the people is like expecting weed killer to feed plants. That’s not what it’s for.

 

[DexterTCN]

Northern Ireland and Scotland famously free from bigotry and xenophobia, right?

No they're not, sadly.

Maybe you'd like to post some pics of those primarily responsible for it in Scotland and NI?

Maybe some marches? Some reports of hate crimes?

Maybe we'll get a better idea of who it is.

 

[collectordave]

You are labouring under the misapprehension that it is the role of parliament to represent the interests of the people. It isn’t. It is the role of parliament to represent the interests of property, in particular capital.

Thankyou for extending my political education.

Just to be sure what you are saying, in this case, is that when a politician cites "the will of the people" they are just lying!

Meanwhile back in dreamland would it not be nice if the MPs deserting their parties formed an independants alliance standing for the interests of the people using truth, honesty and openness as the mainstays of their political agenda?

Damn! Reality kicks in now I am depressed.

 

[bemused]

I wasn't too worried about Brexit, however, watching these headbangers I dug out my naturalisation certificate a few weeks ago.

 

[flypanam]

My wife and I travelled back from Bari on Saturday night, got a grilling at the border force post;
1. The border guard had a go at me for travelling on my Irish passport card and not my paged passport. Passport card has been in operation for 4 years and I've never had problem before.
2. My wife got grilled over having two passports. One with her EU family visa water ink stamp and the other her valid Canadian passport. I had to explain she didn't get a bio metric card when she applied because she was told by the home office she wouldn't need it.
3. He then questioned the validity of our marriage, and suggested in future that we carry a copy of our wedding cert with us. I guess because she kept her name.
4. Lastly he didn't know that we can't (As she is Canadian, I'll have to apply as well just to make sure she gets) for settled status until after 31st March, my wife doesn't have a biometric residence card. She's now shitting it that her two passports will get lost along the way.

Fucking bummed me out at 11 pm.

Though annoying we've decided to carry our marriage cert and a copy of our tenancy agreement to head off any accusations.

 

[CRI]

My wife and I travelled back from Bari on Saturday night, got a grilling at the border force post;
1. The border guard had a go at me for travelling on my Irish passport card and not my paged passport. Passport card has been in operation for 4 years and I've never had problem before.
2. My wife got grilled over having two passports. One with her EU family visa water ink stamp and the other her valid Canadian passport. I had to explain she didn't get a bio metric card when she applied because she was told by the home office she wouldn't need it.
3. He then questioned the validity of our marriage, and suggested in future that we carry a copy of our wedding cert with us. I guess because she kept her name.
4. Lastly he didn't know that we can't (As she is Canadian, I'll have to apply as well just to make sure she gets) for settled status until after 31st March, my wife doesn't have a biometric residence card. She's now shitting it that her two passports will get lost along the way.

Fucking bummed me out at 11 pm.

Though annoying we've decided to carry our marriage cert and a copy of our tenancy agreement to head off any accusations.

I can't like this post, but expect there will be a fuckton more people experiencing the same shit from here on out.

 

[Gramsci]

An East European friend of mine has gone through the whole process of getting British citizenship. The whole tedious process of passing the citizenship test. They showed me the book they had to pass the test. Its laughable view of this country. Me and my friend laughed over its portraying UK as a tolerant place.

Due to Brexit they decided to do it. They had put down roots here and the worry of Brexit made them think this as the best option. Which I can understand.

Now as they say they are citizens of two racist countries. There own East European one and the UK.

Brexit make me feel ashamed of my country now.

 

[collectordave]

An East European friend of mine has gone through the whole process of getting British citizenship. The whole tedious process of passing the citizenship test. They showed me the book they had to pass the test. Its laughable view of this country. Me and my friend laughed over its portraying UK as a tolerant place.

Due to Brexit they decided to do it. They had put down roots here and the worry of Brexit made them think this as the best option. Which I can understand.

Now as they say they are citizens of two racist countries. There own East European one and the UK.

Brexit make me feel ashamed of my country now.

My sympathies to your friend. Similar thoughts are going through the minds of some British expats in Portugal. It did suprise the British Consul at a recent reassurance meeting that two expressed their thoughts of applying for Portuguese citizenship. A little better here as the Portuguese government is looking to pass a law to protect the rights of British expats in Portugal even if Britain doesn't.

In the UK I think it is the best option as after Brexit the government will, I feel, introduce a draconian immigration policy in an attempt to cover up their incompetence over the last 43 years and as one final fling to blame the EU for the state Bitain is in.

 

[Gramsci]

My sympathies to your friend. Similar thoughts are going through the minds of some British expats in Portugal. It did suprise the British Consul at a recent reassurance meeting that two expressed their thoughts of applying for Portuguese citizenship. A little better here as the Portuguese government is looking to pass a law to protect the rights of British expats in Portugal even if Britain doesn't.

In the UK I think it is the best option as after Brexit the government will, I feel, introduce a draconian immigration policy in an attempt to cover up their incompetence over the last 43 years and as one final fling to blame the EU for the state Bitain is in.

Its good to hear that that the Portuguese government is that generous.

There are a lot of Portuguese in my local area. Stockwell is "little Portugal".

Some of them have been here for years.

 

[Gramsci]

Its things like this that make me sure I was right to oppose Brexit.

Tory MP of Italian descent has tried to get amendment to ensure rights of people from other EU countries if no deal Brexit happens. Reasonable position supported by MPs across parties. Cue Tory Government chaos. Javid supporting it, "hostile environment" May not, Government climbdown.

Government relents on rights of EU citizens after MP quits

And the Tory MP who proposed amendment losing his job.

Plus good points here from Labour MP. Why isn't leadership saying this?

]The Labour MP Stephen Doughty described the “settled status” scheme as a shambles and told Javid the basis of registration was discriminatory as it required EU citizens to request rights they already had.

It would also recategorise them in a no-deal scenario as a cohort of the population who did not have rights if they did not have a settled status.

“‘If people are having to secure those rights then, by definition, they don’t have those rights,” Doughty said. “You are at risk of having Windrush all over again.

This whole Brexit is shit.

 

[The39thStep]

Expat in Portugal.

Portugal already run a scheme where all EU citizens need to register to become resident. When entering the country you have "tourist rights" which means you can stay as long as you like but can be deported for any trivial reason. Health care etc. is dependent upon the EHIC for EU members and health insurance for non EU members. The next stage is to register as resident the first time is for five years you need to show proof such as home ownership bank account etc. During this five years you are not eligible to claim social security benefits however you can then register with a doctor as your family doctor and you are not deported for trivial reasons. After the five years you can apply for permanent residency using the initial registration document as proof, a few more rights are granted at this stage.

You can of course apply at any time for citizenship.

Portugal has already affirmed that British Citizens resident in Portugal i.e. the initial or permanent will have their RESIDENCY rights protected post Brexit. Note: Tourist status will change.

Two things confuse me. The first is why has Britain not exercised it's sovereign rights and had a similar scheme running during it's membership of the EU? It is every countries right to know who is living within its borders.

The second is that even with such a long running scheme (20 years at least) take up is still not 100% many simply believe that as I am married to someone who is registered I am ok, whereas it is quite clear that all family members need to apply as individuals.

Some who know about the scheme simply will not register for many and varied reasons. Some of these have even bought houses here. Risky as a tourist.

The scheme has no complications but does raise things to be aware of such as driving in Portugal. A British driving licence is valid as long as it shows your current address and is invalid after 28 days of a change of address so 28 days after obtaining residency a UK licence is no longer valid and should be exchanged for a Portuguese licence, this is not a bother the IMTT and DVLC have an agreement for these to be exchanged.

Scary bit here is that European rights for expatriates are subject to reciprocal arrangements with Britain so we have to watch carefully what Britain is doing.

I believe it is not the same in all EU member countries.

I've got the initial five year residency all I had to show was passport and give an address and my finance number took 10 minutes at the Town Hall. The next five year one is issued at the SEF office. I'm in central Algarve where abouts are you in Portugal?

 

[collectordave]

I am right in the centre of Portugal just a couple of miles from the geodesic centre.

Really beautiful country.

 

[collectordave]

Tory MP of Italian descent has tried to get amendment to ensure rights of people from other EU countries if no deal Brexit happens. Reasonable position supported by MPs across parties. Cue Tory Government chaos. Javid supporting it, "hostile environment" May not, Government climbdown.

Reading that article made me feel quite queasy. Only now are they thinking about British citizens rights? The article appears to be biased against Europe such words as "While Lidington said the government took the rights of EU citizens including British nationals settled in the bloc “extremely seriously”, he warned that MPs should not “underestimate the challenge” in persuading the EU"

There is no challenge in persuading the EU, as I have mentioned Portugal, fed up waiting for Britain, is allready taking action. The EU raised the issue of rights two years ago. The challenge appears to be the British Government. I can see why some people seem confused about Brexit with a government that doesn't govern and a biased 'Free' press'.

 

[Gramsci]

Reading that article made me feel quite queasy. Only now are they thinking about British citizens rights? The article appears to be biased against Europe such words as "While Lidington said the government took the rights of EU citizens including British nationals settled in the bloc “extremely seriously”, he warned that MPs should not “underestimate the challenge” in persuading the EU"

There is no challenge in persuading the EU, as I have mentioned Portugal, fed up waiting for Britain, is allready taking action. The EU raised the issue of rights two years ago. The challenge appears to be the British Government. I can see why some people seem confused about Brexit with a government that doesn't govern and a biased 'Free' press'.

You made interesting point that Portugal is going to gaurentee UK citizens right whatever happens.

This does not fit the narrative of Brexit supporters here. Of the Tory right or hard left.

In that narrative its the EU that is giving UK a hard time. EU is racist so anyone who supports staying in is tinged with that.

The Tory MP who put into the amendment is of Italian descent and had been lobbying "hostile environment" May about this from last two years according to the article.

Of course one of the reasons for Brexit was to "get our borders back" and extend the "hostile environment". to all. Which May is pursuing. I would have thought that was obvious from the start. May , in her mind , is only doing what she reckoned people voted for.

The argument being that it was unfair that EU people had rights others didn't.

 

[DexterTCN]

You made interesting point that Portugal is going to gaurentee UK citizens right whatever happens.

This does not fit the narrative of Brexit supporters here. Of the Tory right or hard left.

In that narrative its the EU that is giving UK a hard time. EU is racist so anyone who supports staying in is tinged with that.

The Tory MP who put into the amendment is of Italian descent and had been lobbying "hostile environment" May about this from last two years according to the article.

Of course one of the reasons for Brexit was to "get our borders back" and extend the "hostile environment". to all. Which May is pursuing. I would have thought that was obvious from the start. May , in her mind , is only doing what she reckoned people voted for.

The argument being that it was unfair that EU people had rights others didn't.

That tory mp...Costa...we know him in Scotland. He's proper tory, toes the line. Even we were 'wtf!' when he got canned for the amendment (lost his pps job). These cunts running this don't give a shit about anyone even in their own party.

 

[collectordave]

You made interesting point that Portugal is going to gaurentee UK citizens right whatever happens.

This does not fit the narrative of Brexit supporters here. Of the Tory right or hard left.

In that narrative its the EU that is giving UK a hard time. EU is racist so anyone who supports staying in is tinged with that.

The Tory MP who put into the amendment is of Italian descent and had been lobbying "hostile environment" May about this from last two years according to the article.

Of course one of the reasons for Brexit was to "get our borders back" and extend the "hostile environment". to all. Which May is pursuing. I would have thought that was obvious from the start. May , in her mind , is only doing what she reckoned people voted for.

The argument being that it was unfair that EU people had rights others didn't.

There are many things which do not fit the Brexit narrative. Each morning I take a trip to my local cafe for the first cup of coffee and I watch the News as reported on Portuguese TV.

During the evening I watch British news on British TV, the two do not allways agree. The British news it seems, in my opinion, to be biased against the EU.

The argument that EU citizens have rights others do not have simply points to the incompetence of the British government.

The right of free movement within the EU was agreed by Britain, at no point has the EU put forward that EU citizens are allowed to claim benefits etc in the country in which they are settled. This has allways been the responsibility of the sovereign countries government.

Portugal is a fine example, EU citizens have the right to reside here but cannot claim benefits at all for the first five years and even then very little.

This is Portuguese law, the British government has had the sovereign right to do the same thing only the British government did not bother, till now.

There also appears to be confusion in Britain about refugees, immigrants and EU citizens. I can remember news articles showing a family from Iran settled in a nice mansion in London paid for by the tax payer with inferences that this was due to EU policy, utter rubbish.

One ardent Brexit voter I know stated that his reason for voting to leave the EU was to stop all these foreigners takeing our jobs. My first point of course was that they did not "take" the job but were given the job by their employer. After finding that the workers he was talking about were from Jamaica and Namibia I pointed out that these were not EU citizens.

The discussion went no further as he decided that talking to a 'trouble maker' was too much bother huff huff.

As for the EU being racist, the EU itself is a collection of nations of different races working together. There are racist tensions in each country the same as in Britain but these are not caused by the EU.

I also do not believe for a second that May believes it is the will of the people, the majority did not vote in the referendum, the best that could be said then is that the British people said get on with governing Britain.

 

[mojo pixy]

An East European friend of mine has gone through the whole process of getting British citizenship. The whole tedious process of passing the citizenship test. They showed me the book they had to pass the test. Its laughable view of this country.

Got to swear an oath of allegiance to the queen, too, to get the actual citizenship. Most British people never have to do that, you're born a subject of the crown so it's a given. Why anyone would want to come here in the first place as more than a tourist is beyond me. Especially when the process ends with swearing an oath of allegiance to a monarch ffs.

 

[yield]

As for the EU being racist, the EU itself is a collection of nations of different races working together. There are racist tensions in each country the same as in Britain but these are not caused by the EU.

"EU itself is a collection of nations of different races" Racism produces the idea of race not the other way around.

As SpackleFrog posted on another thread

At the risk of getting back on topic this is a pretty damning indictment of the EU and its institutional racism.

African Union seeks to kill EU plan to process migrants in Africa

 

[bemused]

"EU itself is a collection of nations of different races" Racism produces the idea of race not the other way around.

As SpackleFrog posted on another thread

Didn't the EU spend last week in Egypt paying off regimes to stop refugees entering Europe?

 

[zahir]

There’s also a legal challenge from JCWI on the right to rent. I think this was being heard in December so it may now be waiting on a decision (I’ve no idea how long these kinds of hearings take).

Right To Rent Is A Policy That Leads To Discrimination

Some good news - the JCWI has won the case, though the Home Office has leave to appeal. I assume the policy will still be in force until this has worked its way through the courts.

Right to Rent scheme ruled incompatible with human rights law

In a robust judgement, Mr Justice Spencer said the much-criticised policy was unlawful because it caused landlords to discriminate against British citizens from minority ethnic backgrounds and against foreign nationals who have a legal right to rent.

He found that requiring landlords to check immigration status caused racial discrimination against anyone without a British passport and against ethnic minorities. The judge also said the government had failed to show that the checks had any effect on encouraging undocumented migrants to leave the country.

“MPs who voted for this legislation would be aghast to learn of its discriminatory effect as shown by the evidence,” he added. “In my judgment, the evidence, when taken together, strongly showed not only that landlords are discriminating against potential tenants on grounds of nationality and ethnicity but also that they are doing so because of the scheme.

“It is my view that the scheme introduced by the government does not merely provide the occasion or opportunity for private landlords to discriminate, but causes them to do so where otherwise they would not.”

ETA: More detail, and a link to the judgement, in this report.

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/jcwi-right-to-rent-high-court/


Thread:

 

[CRI]

Got to swear an oath of allegiance to the queen, too, to get the actual citizenship. Most British people never have to do that, you're born a subject of the crown so it's a given. Why anyone would want to come here in the first place as more than a tourist is beyond me. Especially when the process ends with swearing an oath of allegiance to a monarch ffs.

I was lucky to do it before they made a big deal. Just went to a local solicitor, he read out the statement and said, "Do you affirm?" and I said yes, he signed and that was it. It was sort of a "pinky swear" if you know what I mean.

 

[Gramsci]

"EU itself is a collection of nations of different races" Racism produces the idea of race not the other way around.

As SpackleFrog posted on another thread

I think what collectordave is correct in relation to this country at least.

Racial tensions in this country have nothing to do with being in the EU.

This country has long history of racism.

As one of my Brixton friends pointed out during the run up to referendum the way people were going on about East Europeans is the same as the way people went on about his father's generation who came here from Carribbean back in 60s/ 70s.

Back then Commonwealth was in practise an area of free movement.

Like now with EU people it was curtailed due to resentment against immigration.

Institutional racism has been going on in this country for years. Nothing to do with EU.

Main reason I was Remainer was because I felt that anti immigration sentiment in this country would be given more credence with Brexit. Also taking away rights of one group to live here would not improve the overall situation for migrants to come here. Which clearly it hasn't. Its going to be hostile environment for all now with Brexit. If it happens.

 

[Gramsci]

Got to swear an oath of allegiance to the queen, too, to get the actual citizenship. Most British people never have to do that, you're born a subject of the crown so it's a given. Why anyone would want to come here in the first place as more than a tourist is beyond me. Especially when the process ends with swearing an oath of allegiance to a monarch ffs.

And my East European friend says you do this in room with big picture of Her Majesty in the room.I could not believe it. But yes that is want happens.

Reminded of my younger days when I saw Till Death to Us Part. Alf Garnett was made fun of for having Her Majesty above his mantelpiece. Back then it was treated as a joke. Not now.

 

[zahir]

Some good news - the JCWI has won the case, though the Home Office has leave to appeal. I assume the policy will still be in force until this has worked its way through the courts.

Right to Rent scheme ruled incompatible with human rights law

Confirmation that right to rent remains in force despite ruling that it is illegal.

 

[collectordave]

This right to rent is interesting.

Are the government telling us that illegal immigrants can only rent council houses?

Seems like private landlords are being co-opted into doing the border guards job for free.

How does a landlord check the status of anyone wishing to rent?

 

[Poi E]

And my East European friend says you do this in room with big picture of Her Majesty in the room.I could not believe it. But yes that is want happens.

Reminded of my younger days when I saw Till Death to Us Part. Alf Garnett was made fun of for having Her Majesty above his mantelpiece. Back then it was treated as a joke. Not now.

Yes, that's what you do. The people I was surrounded with were pretty bloody happy. For me, already being a dutiful subject of HM by virtue of being a New Zealander, it was all rather unnecessary.

This right to rent is interesting.

Are the government telling us that illegal immigrants can only rent council houses?

Seems like private landlords are being co-opted into doing the border guards job for free.

How does a landlord check the status of anyone wishing to rent?

Passport?

 

[zahir]

This right to rent is interesting.

Are the government telling us that illegal immigrants can only rent council houses?

If you’re ‘illegal’ the idea is that you can’t rent anything, or at least landlords face a hefty fine if they rent to you. This also goes for sheltering someone ‘illegal’ even if they’re not on the tenancy agreement - landlords are expected to evict everyone in this situation.

 

[zahir]

Passport?

Right to Rent and the ‘Windrush generation’

The Right to Rent scheme does not require tenants to provide a UK passport, a biometric residence permit or a naturalisation certificate; other documents such as driving licences are acceptable in combination to prove someone has an unlimited Right to Rent. However, even if someone produces these documents, unless the landlord has a good understanding of how Right to Rent works, they may not realise that the documents provided are sufficient. It is inevitable that many BME people looking for a home in the private rented sector will be subject to discrimination when looking to rent property. As a society we may have moved on from ‘No black, no dogs, no Irish’, but the evidence collected by the JWCI and the RLA suggested that Right to Rent has introduced new forms of discrimination.

The settled status scheme for EU citizens will mean that landlords are expected to check their status online with the Home Office database before renting to them.

 

[mojo pixy]

This right to rent is interesting.

Are the government telling us that illegal immigrants can only rent council houses?

Seems like private landlords are being co-opted into doing the border guards job for free.

How does a landlord check the status of anyone wishing to rent?

They charge the prospective tenant a whacking great fee, and have the check done by an agency who specialise in checking immigration status, references and income etc. (example)