Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

[spitfire]

I’m fairly sure you’d be OK as it’s an existing relationship. I think the problems really start for new relationships beginning after brexit.

Cheers, I think this highlights one of the things that people are finding so distressing about it. I try and keep up with the developments, watch the news, read the useful bits of the threads on here and I'm still unsure what the fuck is going on. Luckily I'm fairly resilient mentally, as is Mlle. Fire but the stress for a lot of people must be terrible.

We've already agreed that if they make it too difficult or it gets too nasty living here we're off. Ireland or France. Toodle pip what what!

 

[zahir]

I take it you’re both living here now. I think there may be problems for couples in your position living in other EU countries who want to move back to the UK. If you’re considering leaving the UK it might be worth thinking about the implications if you ever want to return.

 

[spitfire]

Fair point but I reckon if we go, we're gone. We're both closer to 50 than 40 Mini Fire is 6 and she'd be happy as a pig in shit in either country. If I hadn't just got the new business going a move to Cannes was being talked about anyway.

As a last resort family history will probably get me a blue passport anyway and we'd have to get married. Neither of which we want to do.

 

[zahir]

Here’s an example of an Irish citizen having problems over permanent residence. She’s from Belfast.

Home Office tells Northern Irish woman to prove right to live in Belfast

To the couple’s shock, their application was refused on the grounds that the “sponsor”, Gemma, did not show any evidence that she had permanent residency, even though she had included her birth certificate showing she was born in the UK in 1981.

The Home Office told them their right of permanent residence had expired because they had been out of the country for more than two years. “We were floored by the letter which essentially said you have no right to be in Northern Ireland,” said Dominic.

 

[zahir]

Some additional comments from legal people on this thread.

 

[zahir]

Another thread. This may now have been superseded by provisions for the Irish in the current Immigration Bill.




ETA:

 

[zahir]

Revealed: how Home Office hires out staff to hunt migrants

According to internal documents seen by the Observer, the department is attempting to embed immigration officers at a rate of almost £60 an hour as part of an “enhanced checking service” being offered to public services, understood to include NHS trusts and local authorities, as well as private firms.

The organisations are offered “real-time” access to information about someone’s immigration status through an “on-site immigration official”, who can be asked to attend interviews and encourage undocumented migrants to leave the country voluntarily. The embedded official can also pass the details of undocumented migrants to immigration enforcement officers.

 

[zahir]

Thread.

 

[zahir]

This summarises some of the issues with applying for settled status.

Warning lights flashing over EU settled status app

 

[zahir]

This looks like the situation a lot more people will find themselves in after brexit.

“He is the only person I have”: how a single payslip nearly ruined an engagement

 

[CRI]

This looks like the situation a lot more people will find themselves in after brexit.

“He is the only person I have”: how a single payslip nearly ruined an engagement

Christ that's grim. Back in 1990, I was in London on a student visa, married a UK national who was earning just above what would have been minimum wage. All I had to do was send my US passport, copy of the marriage certificate, letter from the landlord (Father in law), letter from the college and maybe a bank statement to the Home Office. Couple weeks later passport was stamped for a year. Sent the whole shebang in again after that year, and got the passport back with indefinite leave to remain. I'm pretty sure I didn't pay anything, apart from maybe recorded delivery charges. It really was that simple. And, I was eligible for UK citizenship after 3 years being married back then. I know it wasn't so easy for spouses from certain countries or for BAME British citizens, but theoretically, the process was easy peasy. Now, Jesus wept! And it will get worse with the new Immigration Bill. Gotta control the peasants I guess.

 

[zahir]

The Future Of EU Citizens In The UK Has Never Been More Uncertain – Politicians Must Take Action Or Forever Be Remembered For Failing Millions

For EU citizens, times are difficult primarily because of settled status, the new status we all have to apply for if we want to stay. There are already so many problems with settled status that it is difficult to know where to even begin. While Immigration Minister Caroline Nokes hails the processing of thousands of applications as a success, all I can see is that many applications resulted in the granting of pre-settled status only. That status has a time stamp on it and it does not automatically change to settled status. What this means is that we could end up in a situation where EU citizens become illegal in a few years.

If patterns continue in a way similar to now, we could be looking at hundreds of thousands of illegal EU citizens. Together with immigrants from elsewhere, they would, as we learned last weekend, essentially be hunted. And they could include a lot of children.

One of the greatest risks for EU citizens lies in the immigration bill currently before Parliament. If that bill is passed without amendments, it will strip us of our legal status and protections without replacing them. EU citizens would essentially be irregular immigrants until granted the new status after application (if successful). Additionally, the bill gives sweeping Henry VIII powers that could enable drastic changes to EU citizens’ rights immediately. Ministers would be able, for instance, to simply change our social security rights.

This is why Yvette Cooper is right: this is “Windrush on steroids”. That is the case not least because of the plan to provide settled status as a digital status only. This will not work. We need the government to change this and provide us with a physical document that can be shown easily to prove our status. This must also be valid without the need to constantly update details for the rest of our lives — as it stands, we would have to always update our passport details each time we get a new passport; each time sending our passport to the Home Office for checking. 3.6 million people doing this for the rest of their lives. That is an unacceptable burden and it will never work practically.

An easy to use physical document is also so important because we are already looking at a hotchpotch of citizens’ rights, with the government having made some individual separate agreements for some EU citizens. This is already creating not just a class of EU citizens, which would be problematic enough, but separate classes of EU citizens with different rights.

 

[zahir]

Migration Observatory report - Unsettled Status? which EU citizens are at risk of failing to secure their rights after Brexit?

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....-failing-to-secure-their-rights-after-brexit/

 

[ska invita]

Migration Observatory report - Unsettled Status? which EU citizens are at risk of failing to secure their rights after Brexit?

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....-failing-to-secure-their-rights-after-brexit/

I posted that in the opening post in this thread - unavoidable hard truths in that

 

[zahir]

I’d forgotten that you posted it.

What everyone seems to be saying is that the number of people who slip through the net, for whatever reason, is going to be in the hundreds of thousands.

 

[CRI]

I’d forgotten that you posted it.

What everyone seems to be saying is that the number of people who slip through the net, for whatever reason, is going to be in the hundreds of thousands.

Yes, this, and I'm trying to wrap my head about what happens to them when the deadline passes? Will they be rounded up and deported? What happens if they own their homes or businesses? Are they forced to sell, or are these confiscated by the government. I mean I hope something will happen to halt the shower of shit that is the "settled status" scheme before it gets to that stage. But following along to its logical conclusion, they'd have no right to remain, so would have to leave, voluntarily, or not.

And, it seems the status could theoretically be revoked. Just wondering how and in what circumstances, and what would happen to the person.

 

[zahir]

UK Government Refuses to recognise Irish citizenship

More by Emma DeSouza on the citizenship issue and the Good Friday Agreement.

Brexit is airbrushing my rights under the Good Friday Agreement out of history ǀ View

However, the backstop in its enormity has overshadowed a developing crisis around citizenship, identity and the Good Friday Agreement. The fact that British passport holders in Northern Ireland will have significantly different rights to their Irish neighbours or that Irish passport holders are being advised to renounce British citizenship - to be accepted as Irish and not British under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement - has received little coverage.

We’re already seeing a manifestation of the effect Brexit will have on the delicate balance within our society. We’re seeing Northern Ireland-born British citizens having to obtain Irish passports in order to access freedom of movement across the EU. We’re seeing Northern Ireland-born Irish citizens having to formally renounce British citizenship in order to access the EU’s family life rights. And as for dual nationals, they already experience a restriction to their EU rights in that they cannot benefit from EU family life rights and will not, as recently revealed, be able to secure their EU rights under the Settlement Scheme. Neither will Irish citizens.

Under the current circumstances, each of the three categories of citizenship, to which all Northern Ireland-born citizens are entitled, come with complex restrictions which instead actively force citizens to choose one citizenship, one identity or the other. This is a tremendous breach of the Good Friday Agreement and the principles of its foundation; a breach that Brexit is exacerbating.

Even more concerning than the Home Office relentlessly dragging families like mine through the courts with appeals, is the statement that it is the UK government’s “view that an international agreement such as the Belfast Good Friday cannot supersede domestic legislation.” Essentially, the UK government does not consider itself legally bound to the very treaty it currently claims to be protecting. This raises very real concerns and fears that the government may further distance itself from its obligations under the Agreement after Brexit.

 

[collectordave]

And will the reverse process happen to UK citizens over the ditch, somewhere in Europe ?

Expat in Portugal.

Portugal already run a scheme where all EU citizens need to register to become resident. When entering the country you have "tourist rights" which means you can stay as long as you like but can be deported for any trivial reason. Health care etc. is dependent upon the EHIC for EU members and health insurance for non EU members. The next stage is to register as resident the first time is for five years you need to show proof such as home ownership bank account etc. During this five years you are not eligible to claim social security benefits however you can then register with a doctor as your family doctor and you are not deported for trivial reasons. After the five years you can apply for permanent residency using the initial registration document as proof, a few more rights are granted at this stage.

You can of course apply at any time for citizenship.

Portugal has already affirmed that British Citizens resident in Portugal i.e. the initial or permanent will have their RESIDENCY rights protected post Brexit. Note: Tourist status will change.

Two things confuse me. The first is why has Britain not exercised it's sovereign rights and had a similar scheme running during it's membership of the EU? It is every countries right to know who is living within its borders.

The second is that even with such a long running scheme (20 years at least) take up is still not 100% many simply believe that as I am married to someone who is registered I am ok, whereas it is quite clear that all family members need to apply as individuals.

Some who know about the scheme simply will not register for many and varied reasons. Some of these have even bought houses here. Risky as a tourist.

The scheme has no complications but does raise things to be aware of such as driving in Portugal. A British driving licence is valid as long as it shows your current address and is invalid after 28 days of a change of address so 28 days after obtaining residency a UK licence is no longer valid and should be exchanged for a Portuguese licence, this is not a bother the IMTT and DVLC have an agreement for these to be exchanged.

Scary bit here is that European rights for expatriates are subject to reciprocal arrangements with Britain so we have to watch carefully what Britain is doing.

I believe it is not the same in all EU member countries.

 

[zahir]

A thread questioning assurances made by Jeremy Hunt in Portugal.

 

[collectordave]

My first thoughts on reading this article was a picture of British MPs standing on the terrace of the houses of parliament drinking (at the TAX payers expence) having a laugh and saying "hey that is a good law I really approve of that" that is a piece of legislation reciving approval.

Now the gap between "Approval" and "enshrined in law" is not as wide as Mr Hunts thoughts and reality so I do not believe the EU27 are mislead in the slightest. The sad part is that ordinary citizens are misled expat or living in Brtain.

The trick is in the words used take "enshrined" as an example as a word it conjures up the idea of some poor mason carving the law into stone tablets with a nod to Moses. In reallity with the British Government it means we have written it on our wax tablet (wax of course melts when the going gets hot so no evidence).

Another set of words "the United Kingdom has already decided that the rights of European citizens living in the United Kingdom on 29 March 2019, the date of Brexit, will be fully respected under the terms that had been negotiated" sounds great but all that has been negotiated so far is a reciprocal agreement sorry cannot call it agreement yet as the british government has still to agree, when they do it becomes an agreement.

"Decided" is one step down from approved it means we thought about it but need a late night session in the bar to see if we approve.

The other part not stated here is the immigration law proposals highlighted in this thread. It means Britain has yet to decide what rights EU citizens will have so what will be respected. If the British decide that EU citizens have no rights then the british will respect them.

Of course if the deal is signed including the reciprocal bit and Portugal pass a law respecting British expat rights Britain will have to respect EU citizens rights in the same manner as Portugal.

This could be the shortest lived treaty\agreement\deal that has ever been!

 

[zahir]

Thread - EU citizens refused platform on People’s Vote March.

 

[ska invita]

dont mention the foreigners... i mentioned it once but i think i got away with it

 

[redsquirrel]

Thread - EU citizens refused platform on People’s Vote March.

And?

Come this is supposed to be a discussion board, make some comment at least.
If all you want to redo is post up links to threads why not just get a twitter account.

Oh and this is the politics that this individual is supporting

I understand why some are uneasy about TIG. I certainly have many questions. But the bottom line is simple: both May and Corbyn support the most destructive but unnecessary act of self-harm ever known. Black and white politics will not help us at this watershed moment.

Black and white politics based on party loyalties have already failed millions. I understand why it's difficult. But it is very clear that the only way forward is a new alliance that cuts across traditional party lines in the best interest of the country.

 

[zahir]

Oh and this is the politics that this individual is supporting

To be clear I’ve no sympathy for the centrist realignment that she’s supporting. This does feel like a common narrative among people on social media campaigning for the rights of EU citizens. I don’t think that necessarily takes away from useful information or analysis that they come up with. I haven’t found that much from sources that are more in line with my own views, though maybe I’m looking in the wrong places. I’d have thought them being refused a platform by the People’s Vote lot speaks for itself, as far as putting any faith in remain campaigners to defend their interests.

 

[zahir]

To add to the above I think part of the reason for this political stance is that the Labour leadership have adopted an anti-immigration position on brexit. They’re committed to ending freedom of movement. Anyone campaigning in the interests of EU citizens here or British citizens in the EU has every right to be dismayed by this.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I don't find it at all surprising that someone might have trouble raising this issue in the current Remain campaign environment - politically it seems to be dominated by neoliberals with no more interest in the people involved than the neoliberals who dominate Leave. They have the same practical goal, limited immigration with controls that make the immigrants an exploitable subclass, they just draw different lines as to how that can be best done.

I've seen "no borders" people on Remain marches and I just felt like saying "you know that 90% of other people here would say 'hmm well that's a bit much we need some controls after all'".

 

[CRI]

To add to the above I think part of the reason for this political stance is that the Labour leadership have adopted an anti-immigration position on brexit. They’re committed to ending freedom of movement. Anyone campaigning in the interests of EU citizens here or British citizens in the EU has every right to be dismayed by this.

At first, I was surprised to see in the Twitter thread above that the Peoples Vote bunch want nothing to do with UK residents who are citizens of other EU countries. As you say, leadership of the Labour Party, as well as the Tories. has embraced an anti-immigrant, isolationist stance, which seems integral to their determination to leave the EU, come Hell or high water. But, you'd half expect those opposed to leaving the EU to use the shitty treatment of non UK EU nationals as yet another good reason to not leave the EU.

Sadly, it probably just shows how deeply embedded xenophobia has become in the UK (or more specifically, parts of England and perhaps Wales,) that folk are either afraid to ally openly with EU 27 citizens because they think that's toxic to their cause, or because it's just become normalised to think immigration is a bad thing, whether your politics are left, right, centre or non-existent. Jesus, is that where we are now?

 

[Dogsauce]

Sadly, it probably just shows how deeply embedded xenophobia has become in the UK (or more specifically, parts of England and perhaps Wales,)

Northern Ireland and Scotland famously free from bigotry and xenophobia, right?

 

[CRI]

Northern Ireland and Scotland famously free from bigotry and xenophobia, right?

Oh right, I must say "Not all English" then.

You know I'm talking about the result of the referendum vote, which we are told repeatedly is the "will of the people." Back atcha!

 

[redsquirrel]

Underneath the above crap from the loon there is something to be thought about.

Polling shows that the attitudes of people living in Scotland to immigration are not especially different from those living in the rest of the UK (1, 2 and I'm sure UKpollingreport had a good piece on this but I can't find it now). So if Scotland is a less of a "hostile environment" for migrants this suggests it is less to do with any greater xenophobia of people living in England and Wales and more about material factors.

EDIT: So the obvious questions are what are these factors and how do we develop them.