Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.

[tim]

Maybe one day they'll be as evolved as we are and throw their dodgy statues in a river or something

At the moment they're still erecting them.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

and fascists who are trying to stop that from happening

The 'good' fascists then.

 

[Pickman's model]

The 'good' fascists then.

good fascists being dead don't try to do anything

 

[seventh bullet]

The 'good' fascists then.

When it comes to Nazis specifically, at their ideological core is mass murder. There are no good Nazis. It might make liberals squirm but better that they're dead then a movement of them growing and taking power.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It clearly isn't laughable because there are huge monuments to Ukrainian Nazi collaborators.

View attachment 335964

Nationalist mythology is always crap, wherever you find it in the world. Nationalist mythology also always ignores historical events which are unpalatable. I don't excuse any of that. But Ukrainian nationalists only focus on resistance to Russia. It's a narrow focus and lets in undesirables like Bandera. Yes it's bollocks and shouldn't be happening. What it is not is evidence of a mass Nazi movement in Ukraine. There's statues of Lenin all over Russia, and still quite a few of Stalin. That doesn't mean the Bolsheviks are still in power.
None of this would matter particularly and I wouldn't keep coming back to the subject were it not for the fact that Putin keeps labelling Ukraine a Nazi state. Which it isn't, but it is being used as an excuse by Putin for his atrocities. Feel free to give me proof to the contrary, other than some statues and photos of a handful of people waving flags.
Such proof might include evidence of the far right standing in elections (check) and winning large numbers of votes (oh no, that didn't work). Or implimenting anti-Semitic discrimination and legislation. Or mass rallies. Or concentration camps. Or whatever.
Just to make it plain. There are people who call themselves Nazis in Ukraine. And in Russia. And the USA, UK, Sweden, etc. Do they wield any substantial power? No. If they do, tell us all about it.

 

[tim]

Nationalist mythology is always crap, wherever you find it in the world. Nationalist mythology also always ignores historical events which are unpalatable. I don't excuse any of that. But Ukrainian nationalists only focus on resistance to Russia. It's a narrow focus and lets in undesirables like Bandera. Yes it's bollocks and shouldn't be happening. What it is not is evidence of a mass Nazi movement in Ukraine. There's statues of Lenin all over Russia, and still quite a few of Stalin. That doesn't mean the Bolsheviks are still in power.
None of this would matter particularly and I wouldn't keep coming back to the subject were it not for the fact that Putin keeps labelling Ukraine a Nazi state. Which it isn't, but it is being used as an excuse by Putin for his atrocities. Feel free to give me proof to the contrary, other than some statues and photos of a handful of people waving flags.
Such proof might include evidence of the far right standing in elections (check) and winning large numbers of votes (oh no, that didn't work). Or implimenting anti-Semitic discrimination and legislation. Or mass rallies. Or concentration camps. Or whatever.
Just to make it plain. There are people who call themselves Nazis in Ukraine. And in Russia. And the USA, UK, Sweden, etc. Do they wield any substantial power? No. If they do, tell us all about it.

Nationalist mythology anywhere in Europe ends up focusing on the Jews and other minorities as internal enemies. Ukraine is no exception to this. It isn't all about just Russians. As to those people calling themselves Nazis in the Ukraine, an awful lot of them ended up in the Azov Regiment and related political groups just as a lot of Russian Nazis ended up as Wagner contractors and for his rhetoric anti-Nazi rhetoric have a very cozy relationship with Putin.


When it comes to people calling themselves Nazis in the other countries you mentioned. The former and possibly future US President had plenty of links with those who I and many of them would class as neo-Nazis, and as we saw at the Capitol attack Trump was happy to see them go out and fight for his cause. And yesterday, we had Orban addressing CPAC about not wanting Hungary to become a racially mixed nation.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Nationalist mythology anywhere in Europe ends up focusing on the Jews and other minorities as internal enemies. Ukraine is no exception to this. It isn't all about just Russians. As to those people calling themselves Nazis in the Ukraine, an awful lot of them ended up in the Azov Regiment and related political groups just as a lot of Russian Nazis ended up as Wagner contractors and for his rhetoric anti-Nazi rhetoric have a very cozy relationship with Putin.


When it comes to people calling themselves Nazis in the other countries you mentioned. The former and possibly future US President had plenty of links with those who I and many of them would class as neo-Nazis, and as we saw at the Capitol attack Trump was happy to see them go out and fight for his cause. And yesterday, we had Orban addressing CPAC about not wanting Hungary to become a racially mixed nation.

At least we can agree that Ukraine is not a Nazi state and that Nazis do not wield significant power there, judging by your failure to suggest otherwise. That is the important thing in this particular discussion, because of the propaganda barrage from Putin suggesting the contrary.

Orban is a real concern, and Trump's links with the American far right also very scary. Le Pen in France too. Indeed the far right all over. Orban, Trump and Le Pen have one (only one?) thing in common in that they themselves are not Nazis or use Nazi symbolism, whatever their links to Nazi groups may be. So far movements which are overtly Nazi in belief and symbolism remain fringe.

 

[The39thStep]

It’s been done in a snide, slippery manner.

Even better we don't apparently have any fascists in Ukraine just a rainbow coalition equal opportunities brand of Ukrainian nationalism in Azov who some posters deliberately 'misunderstand'

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I've got a brilliant idea. Let's deliberately misrepresent what other people are saying. Then we can feel all self righteous about ourselves.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've got a brilliant idea. Let's deliberately misrepresent what other people are saying. Then we can feel all self righteous about ourselves.

it is the urban way

 

[LDC]

Edited, can't be arsed.

 

[The39thStep]

it is the urban way

on earth as it is in heaven

 

[mojo pixy]

I think I'll probably feel angrier about Ukrainian fascists once the Russian fascists have fucked off home.

Apologies for letting my purity slip, FWIW, British fascists are still wankers who deserve a kicking.

 

[tim]

on earth as it is in heaven

As it is in Heston.

 

[The39thStep]

As it is in Heston.

Hebden

 

[tim]

I think I'll probably feel angrier about Ukrainian fascists once the Russian fascists have fucked off home.

Apologies for letting my purity slip, FWIW, British fascists are still wankers who deserve a kicking.

Good Nazis; bad Nazis!

 

[nogojones]

It's been the Russian state which has been associating all of Ukraine with Nazism, constantly from day one. As you intimate, pro rata it was the Ukraine which suffered the worst in WW2, so the idea that Nazism would be a popular ideology today in that country is laughable.

The where sorry?

I think Belarus might challenge them for who suffered the worst and sorry, but the truth is that the bulk of Ukrainian nationalists threw their lot in with the Nazis as they saw it as their best opportunity to create a Ukrainian state. They chose the wrong side of history there and there is still a strong strain of Ukrainian nationalism that glorifies that past.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The where sorry?

I think Belarus might challenge them for who suffered the worst and sorry, but the truth is that the bulk of Ukrainian nationalists threw their lot in with the Nazis as they saw it as their best opportunity to create a Ukrainian state. They chose the wrong side of history there and there is still a strong strain of Ukrainian nationalism that glorifies that past.

Yeah, you're right about Belarus. I was comparing Ukraine with the RSFSR. I should have made that clear.

 

[TopCat]

I've got a brilliant idea. Let's deliberately misrepresent what other people are saying. Then we can feel all self righteous about ourselves.

You had that idea age three.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

I think I'll probably feel angrier about Ukrainian fascists once the Russian fascists have fucked off home.

Gawd bless The Peoples Nazis

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

You had that idea age three.

Thanks for all your brilliant insights.

 

[Humberto]

If you are ambivalent for a people fighting for their homes, families and futures you are empowering reactionary and fascistic currents when that support falls apart.

 

[mojo pixy]

Gawd bless The Peoples Nazis

Excuse me?

(edit...)

Oh no wait, you're that one who was creaming his pants about dead fascists aren't you?

Well then you should appreciate my point; all sorts of fascists are killing each other just now in Ukraine so yippee, eh?

It's just a shame so many people whose political outlook isn't shit, are also getting hurt and killed. It's a shame you can't tell the difference and likely don't much care .. collateral damage in your 'anti-fascist' cause, perhaps.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Oh no wait, you're that one who was creaming his pants about dead fascists aren't you?

”creaming his pants” back this up or apologise.

 

[mojo pixy]

”creaming his pants” back this up or apologise.

I will do no such thing.

I don't believe the only good fascist is a dead one; a better fascist, is a reformed one. Such a person has more chance of convincing and de-radicalising their former associates, than eg. you and your hardman rhetoric. Which IMO is a better thing to do with fascists than killing them.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

I will do no such thing.

I don't believe the only good fascist is a dead one; a better fascist, is a reformed one. Such a person has more chance of convincing and de-radicalising their former associates, than eg. you and your hardman rhetoric. Which IMO is a better thing to do with fascists than killing them.

So, you make up bollocks and put in others mouth to shore up your piss weak politics. Good work.

All your bullshit just paints a picture of you, nothing more.

 

[mojo pixy]

So, you make up bollocks and put in others mouth to shore up your piss weak politics. Good work.

All your bullshit just paints a picture of you, nothing more.

First, I think whoever you're angry with, its not me. So the anger is like whoosh over my head, on with the content:

I think if preferring to communicate and convince people, rather than kill them, is 'weak politics' then I don't need to 'put words in your mouth'. You'll out yourself just fine as at best a thoughtless twit, at worst as thoroughly antisocial.

However if you insist then what I've got so far is that 'strong politics' entails a willingness to murder your opponents. Fair enough, it's a position; a self-defeating one lacking in empathy, but why not.

Myself, I know for a fact, from personal experience, that I can convince someone to change their mind. Even strongly embedded views, given time and the right stimuli, can change. I'm not sure I could shoot someone in the head, though I've never had to try so maybe that's why my politics are so weak.

Prick.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Myself, I know for a fact, from personal experience, that I can convince someone to change their mind.

Here we have the crux of your wrongness - narcissism and snobbery. This demonstrates you think anti-fascism is a failure, due to a lack of intelligence.

What “stimuli“ would you use as to convert a fascist as you‘re being beaten into a gas chamber?

 

[mojo pixy]

OMG is that happening then?

Prick.

 

[hitmouse]

Here we have the crux of your wrongness - narcissism and snobbery. This demonstrates you think anti-fascism is a failure due to a lack of intelligence.

What “stimuli“ would you use as to convert a fascist as you‘re being beaten into a gas chamber?

If I was being beaten into a gas chamber, I would simply offer the entire third reich out and deck all of them. Proper fucking politics.