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Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.

The39thStep said:
Despite your , and your cohorts , reassurances, on the sort of lines that this sort of thing happened everywhere, the sheer number of memorials, statues, plaques, and street names in honor of fascists in Ukraine is still of concern to me. I want the Russians out of Ukraine but I'd also like the fash and their historical memory out as well.
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I mean fair, I'm not arguing on whether Bandera's a piece of shit or not or about exactly how the public sees him (the only polls I've seen are the ones on here, which seems to suggest that the stamps, perhaps opportunistically, coincided with a rise in popular approval of the guy, which has since abated). I'm mostly just noting that the promotion of pieces of shit by government doesn't usually base itself in the worst of what they've been up to and is often as not about building a national mythos more than caring particularly about the subject themselves. Which makes conversation around what their existence symbolises more complicated than a straight "State likes fascist, ergo".

Obviously the ideal is nasty pieces of work should be de-throned from the public imagination wherever possible, which has become a much more explicit left-right flashpoint in recent times.
 
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Rob Ray said:
I mean fair, i'm not arguing on whether Bandera's a piece of shit or not or about exactly how the public sees him (the only polls I've seen are the ones on here, which seems to suggest that the stamps, perhaps opportunistically, coincided with a rise in popular approval of the guy, which has since abated). I'm mostly just noting that the promotion of pieces of shit by government doesn't usually base itself in the worst of what they've been up to and is often as not about building a national mythos more than caring particularly about the subject themselves, which makes conversation around what their existence symbolises more complicated than a straight "State likes fascist, ergo".

Obviously the ideal is nasty pieces of work should be de-throned from the public imagination wherever possible, which has become a much more explicit left-right flashpoint in recent times.
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The rate of building statues and plaques has fallen recently (marvelous place the internet that I actually found a research article on this) but Bandera's popularity ratings haven't unfortunately.
I can understand where you are coming from better from this post. Thanks .
 
hitmouse said:
... but I've found myself thinking about Winston Churchill. As we all know, Churchill can be described in a way that makes him sound like a monster, and we know that interpretation of Churchill is not what most people learn about him. So fuck Bandera and fuck Churchill, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that anyone who calls Churchill a hero is doing so because they're in favour of poison gas in Iraq, famine in Bengal, troops sent into Tonypandy, admiration for Mussolini and the rest of it. If that makes sense?
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Makes good sense to me. My mum was a Labour voter, a self-described working-class Jewish Londoner, she had a good deal of admiration for Churchill (she was a teenager in London during WW2). I once asked her, during early 1940 when it seemed inevitable that Hitler would invade England - and people at the time were saying it's just a matter of which month or week - was she not scared? She said no, because Mr Churchill assured us that it would all be OK in the end! (I can't imagine the general public having such confidence in some of our more recent PMs :D).
She didn't know about his having gassed Iraqis, managed famines and his other atrocities, I didn't have the heart to tell her...

This also links up with Kevbad the Bad's point about Francis Drake in #437. People aren't necessarily aware of the more ignoble aspects of a person's history, not through denial, refusal to believe etc, they just aren't aware of them. I'm not trying to be condescending, same thing applies to me. When I lived in Vauxhall/Oval I used the Tate library in South Lambeth Road a lot, went to the Tate Gallery... but it's only in recent years I've joined the dots and realised where the Tate money came from, IYSWIM !
 
scalyboy said:
Makes good sense to me. My mum was a Labour voter, a self-described working-class Jewish Londoner, she had a good deal of admiration for Churchill (she was a teenager in London during WW2). I once asked her, during early 1940 when it seemed inevitable that Hitler would invade England - and people at the time were saying it's just a matter of which month or week - was she not scared? She said no, because Mr Churchill assured us that it would all be OK in the end! (I can't imagine the general public having such confidence in some of our more recent PMs :D).
She didn't know about his having gassed Iraqis, managed famines and his other atrocities, I didn't have the heart to tell her...

This also links up with Kevbad the Bad's point about Francis Drake in #437. People aren't necessarily aware of the more ignoble aspects of a person's history, not through denial, refusal to believe etc, they just aren't aware of them. I'm not trying to be condescending, same thing applies to me. When I lived in Vauxhall/Oval I used the Tate library in South Lambeth Road a lot, went to the Tate Gallery... but it's only in recent years I've joined the dots and realised where the Tate money came from, IYSWIM !
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These are false analogies. For all his crimes, Chrchill was not like Bandera. Nor were the two situations anything like each other. Nor was Drake like Bandera.

What you have in Ukraine is a situation where 'liberals' revere the most unsavoury proponents of Ukrainian nationalism. It isn't only because of the war; the process started some time ago.

That western liberals and lefties fall over themselves to make excuses for this is one of the more bizarre features of these sad times.
 
scalyboy said:
Makes good sense to me. My mum was a Labour voter, a self-described working-class Jewish Londoner, she had a good deal of admiration for Churchill (she was a teenager in London during WW2). I once asked her, during early 1940 when it seemed inevitable that Hitler would invade England - and people at the time were saying it's just a matter of which month or week - was she not scared? She said no, because Mr Churchill assured us that it would all be OK in the end! (I can't imagine the general public having such confidence in some of our more recent PMs :D).
She didn't know about his having gassed Iraqis, managed famines and his other atrocities, I didn't have the heart to tell her...

This also links up with Kevbad the Bad's point about Francis Drake in #437. People aren't necessarily aware of the more ignoble aspects of a person's history, not through denial, refusal to believe etc, they just aren't aware of them. I'm not trying to be condescending, same thing applies to me. When I lived in Vauxhall/Oval I used the Tate library in South Lambeth Road a lot, went to the Tate Gallery... but it's only in recent years I've joined the dots and realised where the Tate money came from, IYSWIM !
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Still reeling after himself and Cromwell came highly in to that top Britons of all time poll back in the early 2000's. And yes, there are those who are unaware or refuse to address what was done to the Irish and others.
 
RD2003 said:
These are false analogies. For all his crimes, Chrchill was not like Bandera. Nor were the two situations anything like each other. Nor was Drake like Bandera.

What you have in Ukraine is a situation where 'liberals' revere the most unsavoury proponents of Ukrainian nationalism. It isn't only because of the war; the process started some time ago.

That western liberals and lefties fall over themselves to make excuses for this is one of the more bizarre features of these sad times.
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I don't doubt that we are being shown an edited version of the war via the UK's state-friendly/client media; numerous reports of Russian army atrocities but I've very rarely seen reports of the reverse, e.g. I recall one news item alleging summary execution of Russian prisoners.

Nevertheless Putin has invaded Ukraine, and that's indisputable; so as someone with relatively little background or detailed knowledge of Ukraine, I know where my sympathies lie.
If he'd restricted his 'special operation' to a seizure of the Donbas region only, he might have had more credibility with some people. As it is, the initial stages of the war - with the failed advance directly on Kiev - indicate to me Putin was under the misapprehension that the grateful Ukrainian people would welcome their liberators. But they didn't.
 
scalyboy said:
I don't doubt that we are being shown an edited version of the war via the UK's state-friendly/client media; numerous reports of Russian army atrocities but I've very rarely seen reports of the reverse, e.g. I recall one news item alleging summary execution of Russian prisoners.

Nevertheless Putin has invaded Ukraine, and that's indisputable; so as someone with relatively little background or detailed knowledge of Ukraine, I know where my sympathies lie.
If he'd restricted his 'special operation' to a seizure of the Donbas region only, he might have had more credibility with some people. As it is, the initial stages of the war - with the failed advance directly on Kiev - indicate to me Putin was under the misapprehension that the grateful Ukrainian people would welcome their liberators. But they didn't.
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Fair enough, but I commented on many 'liberal' Ukrainians' lauding of fascists like Bandera and Azov, reflected in the tendency of liberals and lefties here to make excuses for it.

I also pointed out that in Ukraine, this started quite a long time before the invasions.
 
RD2003 said:
Fair enough, but I commented on many 'liberal' Ukrainians' lauding of fascists like Bandera and Azov, reflected in the tendency of liberals and lefties here to make excuses for it.

I also pointed out that in Ukraine, this started quite a long time before the invasions.
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Interesting. Which liberals and lefties here, in particular?
 
nogojones said:
It's the 14th Galician.

Me old man was one of them.
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Oh thats interesting I read some really interesting stuff by Michael Melynk whose father was in them as well (although they are referred to as the 14th Waffen Divison of the SS.)
Did you ever see the documentary on them that was on ITV around 2000?
 
The39thStep said:
Oh thats interesting I read some really interesting stuff by Michael Melynk whose father was in them as well (although they are referred to as the 14th Waffen Divison of the SS.)
Did you ever see the documentary on them that was on ITV around 2000?
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No. Ain't seen that.

I always knew he was in the German army and ended up as a POW, but it was only during lockdown, with a lot of time on my hands that I got to the bottom of what he was up to. Fair play he kept that bit quiet.

There seems to have been much worse SS units and the 14th Galician generally get a more favourable press than the others, but lots of war historians cream their pants over SS uniforms and all that bollocks. I think this book has a more rounded history of them...

www.goodreads.com

Pure Soldiers or Sinister Legion

Pure Soldiers traces the 14th Waffen-SS Division's fort…
www.goodreads.com www.goodreads.com
 
nogojones said:
No. Ain't seen that.

I always knew he was in the German army and ended up as a POW, but it was only during lockdown, with a lot of time on my hands that I got to the bottom of what he was up to. Fair play he kept that bit quiet.

There seems to have been much worse SS units and the 14th Galician generally get a more favourable press than the others, but lots of war historians cream their pants over SS uniforms and all that bollocks. I think this book has a more rounded history of them...

www.goodreads.com

Pure Soldiers or Sinister Legion

Pure Soldiers traces the 14th Waffen-SS Division's fort…
www.goodreads.com www.goodreads.com
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I’ll get a link to that documentary for you tomoz . I’m sure it’s bookmarked somewhere .
I’ll have a look at that book . Thanks

I’ve had a few mates whose fathers were ukranian and came here after the war . I remember going to a Ukrainian club once and they had a function room upstairs with a small room that had photos of Bandera and the SS Troops . Patriots I was told but I never really new anything about Ukraine until another mate told me Bandera was against the Jews . The old boy who had the chippy near my house in Rusholme was Ukrainian but he told loads if people he was Polish and fought for the allies.
 
Remember watching this one a few years back featuring the son of the German Nazi who set up the the 14th Galician, this clip shows a re-burial of some of it's members in Ukraine in 2015:



Full film in poor quality on YouTube:

 
The39thStep said:
Oh thats interesting I read some really interesting stuff by Michael Melynk whose father was in them as well (although they are referred to as the 14th Waffen Divison of the SS.)
Did you ever see the documentary on them that was on ITV around 2000?
Click to expand...

This one?
 
JimW said:
Meduza round-up on Russian far right and nationalists and their involvement in the "special military operation": Dying to kill The Russian neo-Nazis fighting Vladimir Putin’s war to ‘denazify’ Ukraine — Meduza
Thought the bit about links between Ukrainian and Russian fascists/skins etc back in the day was interesting, also the bit at the end about splits between pro and anti war.
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Me and froggy posted about the Black Hundred-Nazi Raevsky years ago when it kicked off in Donetsk. That Milchakov guy is a dangerous psychopath and sadist. Again, years ago I took a peek at either his VKontakte page, or one connected to him, where photos of him committing war crimes were posted openly, carving swastikas into the corpses of Ukrainian soldiers. No wonder he joined Wagner and has probably committed atrocities in Syria for shits and giggles. They really are lowlife scum, these fascists.
 
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