Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.

[Pickman's model]

news from the front

Russia-Ukraine war live news: US to send $550m of new weapons; three killed in minibus evacuating Kherson, officials say

Shipment to include ammunition for rocket launchers; minibus carrying people fleeing a Russian-occupied village in Kherson was hit, reports say

www.theguardian.com

 

[Dystopiary]

Here's a guy fighting in Ukraine: “I'm not going to go deep and say, I’m a nationalist, a patriot, an imperialist, and so forth. I’ll say it outright: I’m a Nazi.” He's not alone.

Rusich is one of several right-wing groups that are actively fighting in Ukraine, in conjunction with Russia’s regular armed forces or allied separatist units.

According to a confidential report by Germany’s Federal Intelligence Service, which was obtained by Der Spiegel and excerpted on May 22, numerous Russian right-wing extremists and neo-Nazis are fighting in Ukraine.

Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?

 

[RD2003]

Here's a guy fighting in Ukraine: “I'm not going to go deep and say, I’m a nationalist, a patriot, an imperialist, and so forth. I’ll say it outright: I’m a Nazi.” He's not alone.



Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?

The difference being that nobody is making excuses for the fascists fighting on Russia's side.

 

[Dystopiary]

The difference being that nobody is making excuses for the fascists fighting on Russia's side.

Literally noone here has made excuses for fascists anywhere. You're either trolling or not bothering to read stuff properly.

There's a big difference between saying "it's not so bad for people to be nazis" and "not everyone in Azov is a nazi."
And there's a big difference between saying "I mourn nazis" and "warcrimes are bad, even if some of the victims might be scumbag nazis."

As well you know, or should do.

 

[RD2003]

There's a big difference between saying "it's not so bad for people to be nazis" and "not everyone in Azov is a nazi."
And there's a big difference between saying "I mourn nazis" and "warcrimes are bad, even if some of the victims might be scumbag nazis."

Maybe there is, but, as I said, the difference lies in the fact that nobody at all, as far as I've seen, has expressed any pity for dead Russian fascists, nor tried to justify their involvement.

 

[bluescreen]

Maybe there is, but, as I said, the difference lies in the fact that nobody at all, as far as I've seen, has expressed any pity for dead Russian fascists, nor tried to justify their involvement.

Won't somebody think of the invaders?

 

[strung out]

Maybe there is, but, as I said, the difference lies in the fact that nobody at all, as far as I've seen, has expressed any pity for dead Russian fascists, nor tried to justify their involvement.

Probably because the Russian fascists are the ones fighting on the side carrying out the war crimes and the genocide, you utter prat.

 

[RD2003]

Won't somebody think of the invaders?

Yes, that was clearly my point.

 

[RD2003]

Probably because the Russian fascists are the ones fighting on the side carrying out the war crimes and the genocide, you utter prat.

Good fascists and bad fascists again.

 

[Pickman's model]

Good fascists and bad fascists again.

there's only one sort of good fascist and how fortunate we are to have this war to make so many fascists good

 

[Serge Forward]

Literally noone here has made excuses for fascists anywhere.

That's not quite right though. Earlier in this thread there were several posts which were pretty much rehabilitation of Azov on the basis that they aren't all nazis. At the time, I suggested that, by that logic, we could rehabilitate the Waffen SS.

 

[strung out]

Good fascists and bad fascists again.

Or fascists that are presenting a clear and immediate danger of carrying out war crimes and genocide against the Ukrainian people, and fascists who are trying to stop that from happening, and can be dealt with once Russia have fucked the fuck off.

 

[RD2003]

Or fascists that are presenting a clear and immediate danger of carrying out war crimes and genocide against the Ukrainian people, and fascists who are trying to stop that from happening, and can be dealt with once Russia have fucked the fuck off.

I was under the impression that you're too getting on in years to be this naive.

 

[Dystopiary]

That's not quite right though. Earlier in this thread there were several posts which were pretty much rehabilitation of Azov on the basis that they aren't all nazis. At the time, I suggested that, by that logic, we could rehabilitate the Waffen SS.

I'll have a look again when I can (too tired rn). Azov aren't all nazis though, that's true, not now. Their roots are nazi and there must still be some nazis in their ranks, but there are loads of people in Azov who are not nazis. There are Jewish and Muslim members. This is not making excuses for nazis. I'm not gonna be saying it's great that the Russians tortured and murdered a bunch of people because a few of the victims had very dodgy politics. As I've said on the main thread (before I ran out of steam tbh) they didn't commit warcrimes for some noble cause.

To be clear, I can't stand nazis. I'm an antifascist.

 

[Dystopiary]

Maybe there is, but, as I said, the difference lies in the fact that nobody at all, as far as I've seen, has expressed any pity for dead Russian fascists, nor tried to justify their involvement.

Oh shut up, nobody here's expressed pity for any fascists.

 

[tim]

I don't know if this fits here. A Chris Williamson Tweet linking to his show on Iranian-run PressTV. Ukrainian Nationalism is apparently modeled on Zionism. The Zionist leadership in the 1930s and 1940s were mostly Ukrainians or similar and were linked to the Ukrainian far-Right; then lots of stuff on how European Jews aren't really Jews and how Middle Eastern Jews aren't really Jews (it can all be proved by the genes); and how falafel has been culturally appropriated.
Maybe he and David Miller really weren't antiSemites before they were kicked out of the Labour Party but they certainly are now that the Iranian state is paying them to be.



Absolute Cunts!

 

[seventh bullet]

Or fascists that are presenting a clear and immediate danger of carrying out war crimes and genocide against the Ukrainian people, and fascists who are trying to stop that from happening, and can be dealt with once Russia have fucked the fuck off.

Because imperialism's imperative for war (and this time it's the Russian state making its move), is having its horrors emerging out of the fog rather than sanitised as in the past (especially if its the state we live under torturing, raping and murdering it's way across another country) doesn't mean the above is fascist.

Putinism is not fascism and I think it's very important to make this point. Like the recent shit being thrown around here in recent days over Azov members being tortured and murdered before the camp where they were held was destroyed to cover it up, actual Russian fascists are on the whole paramilitary misfits and lumpen dregs and definitely in the minority. This thing is awful = fascism is not only wrong but prevents any proper understanding of the conflict, its causes and the nature of the Russian state. This laziness and calling people names if you don't agree (not you necessarily) is embarrassing.

Authoritarian rule is a centuries-long cliche when it comes to Russia. So what? Big insight. As our own history of mass-murdering imperialism has shown, you most definitely do not have to be fascist to inflict cruelty and atrocity onto a 'them' your particular nationalism has helped teach you to hate or disregard as inferior.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It's also worth pointing out that there is a distinction between fascism and Nazism. They are not one and the same. However you define fascism, Nazism originates as a purely German phenomenon. Its 'scientific' racism, insistence on Aryan superiority, identification of Jews, Gypsies and others as subhuman etc are not implicit in other forms of fascism, even if there are sometimes echoes.
The recent use of the term Nazi, applied by the Russian state to all things Ukrainian, blurs the term even more. Deliberately so.

 

[seventh bullet]

It's also worth pointing out that there is a distinction between fascism and Nazism. They are not one and the same. However you define fascism, Nazism originates as a purely German phenomenon. Its 'scientific' racism, insistence on Aryan superiority, identification of Jews, Gypsies and others as subhuman etc are not implicit in other forms of fascism, even if there are sometimes echoes.
The recent use of the term Nazi, applied by the Russian state to all things Ukrainian, blurs the term even more. Deliberately so.

Nah, on the 'other side' there's been the morally repugnant pieces of western propaganda trying to equate Putin's Russia as the new tyrannical threat (which it is to its smaller neighbours) with the Third Reich, cranking it up to eleven in its absurdity. It's as if these pompous pricks want a NATO-Russia nuclear exchange. It's also understandable that the Ukrainian government will use such propaganda to boost internal morale and garner outside support. But strung out seems to have demonstrated how that propaganda has coloured people's perceptions of Russia and what the Putin government is doing.

Thanks for the lesson on the differences between, say, classical fascism and the particularities of Nazism. Mind blown. It's in the central and eastern parts of Europe (including the occupied parts of the Soviet Union) where the Nazi's main killing fields are located and where the aryan master race would eventually bask in the post-genocidal utopia the Nazis dreamed about. For Russian and more widely Soviet national myth-making, the terrible cost in overcoming the Nazi war machine is still utilised to this day as we see with the Putin government. The defeat of Nazism was arguably what gave the Stalinist government legitimacy in the eyes of its citizens, more so than the invitation to actively participate in and also be coerced in the interwar construction of a 'socialist' society.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Nah, on the 'other side' there's been the morally repugnant pieces of western propaganda trying to equate Putin's Russia as the new tyrannical threat (which it is to its smaller neighbours) with the Third Reich, cranking it up to eleven in its absurdity. It's as if these pompous pricks want a NATO-Russia nuclear exchange. It's also understandable that the Ukrainian government will use such propaganda to boost internal morale and garner outside support. But strung out seems to have demonstrated how that propaganda has coloured people's perceptions of Russia and what the Putin government is doing.

Thanks for the lesson on the differences between, say, classical fascism and the particularities of Nazism. Mind blown. It's in the central and eastern parts of Europe (including the occupied parts of the Soviet Union) where the Nazi's main killing fields are located and where the aryan master race would eventually bask in the post-genocidal utopia the Nazis dreamed about. For Russian and more widely Soviet national myth-making, the terrible cost in overcoming the Nazi war machine is still utilised to this day as we see with the Putin government. The defeat of Nazism was arguably what gave the Stalinist government legitimacy in the eyes of its citizens, more so than the invitation to actively participate in and also be coerced in the interwar construction of a 'socialist' society.

It's been the Russian state which has been associating all of Ukraine with Nazism, constantly from day one. As you intimate, pro rata it was the Ukraine which suffered the worst in WW2, so the idea that Nazism would be a popular ideology today in that country is laughable.

 

[seventh bullet]

The propaganda effort from the other side has also tried to paint the Russian government as fascist and bent on European domination and not only that explicitly on the level of the Nazis, with Putin as a new Hitler. It's facile bollocks. The Russian government is painfully aware of it's limitations but nevertheless is attempting to reassert a great power dominance over what it sees as its local areas of influence. The barbarism of the occupying forces shouldn't be so surprising and it isn't something exclusive to fascists, as we see with the scale of that which has been carried out by the world's leading liberal democratic power. 'Fascism' becomes this thing in which all the awful things done in a state's interests are safely boxed and presented in contrast to others. Get away from that crap, just as we can see through the Russian government's own crap pumped out by its propagandists.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I'm not surprised by the barbarism of the Russian army and Russian state. I just don't like it nor see any justification for it.

 

[seventh bullet]

Oh please stop it, implying others are apologists for Russian state aggression and atrocity. It's tiresome.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Oh please stop it, implying others are apologists for Russian state aggression and atrocity. It's tiresome.

Some people are. I'm not saying you are, so stop being so bloody precious. But there is a good section of 'the left' who do make excuses for Russia. One of the ways that happens is by painting Ukraine as a Nazi state. You went to some length earlier to question the use of the term 'fascist' when applied to Putin and his mates. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of using the term 'Nazi' when talking about Ukraine.

 

[RD2003]

Don't know if this belongs here exactly. Normally I'd put in in the main thread. But seeing that, just above, it's been cleared up that governments doing bad shit doesn't make them fascist, I hope nobody decides to call the Ukrainian government and military fascist now the spotlight is on them. From the Guardian:


'Ukrainian forces are violating international law and endangering civilians by establishing bases in residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, Amnesty International said on Thursday.

The defenders’ tactics “in no way justify Russia’s indiscriminate attacks”, the rights group said in a new report, and some Russian “war crimes” including in the city of Kharkiv were not linked to the tactics, AFP reports.


But Amnesty listed incidents when Ukrainian forces appeared to have exposed civilians to danger in 19 towns and villages in the Kharkiv, Donbas and Mykolaiv regions.

Amnesty secretary general Agnes Callamard said:

We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas.
Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law.

The report was met with anger on Twitter.'

 

[Pickman's model]

The report was met with anger on Twitter.'

everything is met with anger on twitter

 

[TopCat]

Oh shut up, nobody here's expressed pity for any fascists.

It’s been done in a snide, slippery manner.

 

[tim]

everything is met with anger on twitter

So, not just by me, then.

 

[tim]

It's been the Russian state which has been associating all of Ukraine with Nazism, constantly from day one. As you intimate, pro rata it was the Ukraine which suffered the worst in WW2, so the idea that Nazism would be a popular ideology today in that country is laughable.

It clearly isn't laughable because there are huge monuments to Ukrainian Nazi collaborators.

 

[mojo pixy]

Maybe one day they'll be as evolved as we are and throw their dodgy statues in a river or something