Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.

[RD2003]

Racist tosh about simple Ukrainians being led astray.

Again, what is it with people trying to put words into my mouth?

I mentioned, almost in passing, the way the political outlook and attitudes of a small number of Ukrainians I've known here in the UK have changed over the time I've known them (about 20 years.)

I speculated that this may be in line with how things have changed in Ukraine itself, where anti-Russian sentiment has undeniably grown throughout most of this century, in part due to promises dangled by the west, and western support for Ukrainian nationalism.* I never said anything about anybody being simple (those Ukrainian acquaintances, in actual fact, all work in academia.)

Nothing at all racist there, so stop trying to seek the moral high ground all the time.


*Please note that I do not think this justifies invasion by Russia, although I do believe that it made it inevitable as time wore on.

 

[RD2003]

You keep saying this, yet nobody here is under the illusion that we're directing the war in any remotely meaningful sense. You seem to know that too. So I think you repeat this or phrases like it in an attempt to distance yourself from the implications of your posts. You say something shit (or quote someone saying something shit with your apparent endorsement), others pick you up on it, and then you try to spin away from that with this kind of insincere self-effacing nonsense.

Most of us have been here for literal years already, we don't need condescending reminders that this forum is purely a talking shop.

What you regard as shit comment is simply your own opinion, which is as (and whatever you say, there's no getting away from it) in practical terms as worthless as mine. You must be old enough to be able to accept that a different viewpoint is something you simply have to put up with in life while trying not to let your emotions get in the way.

Rather than 'spinning away' from anything, I think I've been pretty consistent throughout all this with my opinion. Some people, however, including those who've been here 'literal years,' seem to get upset about views they don't approve of even when they can easily find many more posters whose views better reflect their own, if that's what they want. It's a particularly odd thing when they accept it's 'purely a talking shop.'

I wasn't aware that 'literal years' are of a higher quality than ordinary years.

 

[The39thStep]

Really don't get what point you're trying to laboriously trying to make (again) with this post from a shit dodgy politics Twitter account that has less followers than my cat would have if they were on Twitter. Oh, and it turns out the stamps are from 3 years ago.

It really seems like you and sometimes RD2003 are shouting repeatedly about fascists/far right in the Ukrainian government, but for what end are you doing this, and what political difference does it actually make practically? It does sometimes seem like you skating quite close to the likes of Galloway etc. with this and the way you hark on about something that is largely unimportant to the vast bulk of what's going on there.

I have never said there are fascists/far right in the Ukrainian government and it is somewhat disingenuous of you to suggest that I did.

I come from a tradition of socialism from below, politically opposed to the likes of Galloway. I am proud to be anti fascist. I have no truck with Putin or far right groups in Russia, I never even thought the USSR was socialist. Whilst I am against the Russian invasion I am also politically opposed to the likes of Zelinsky and the existence and influence of fascist groups in Ukraine. I am not prepared to compromise on that opposition and find the trend to whitewash particularly uncomfortable. If your main comment on the Bandera stamps is the date they were issued rather than them being issued at all then please move down the bus.

 

[LDC]

How and what does your opposition to Zelinsky and influence of fascist groups in Ukraine mean or express itself now though in the face of a Russian invasion, apart from just repeatedly posting there's fascists in Ukraine, some with real influence, which nobody on here has denied. I don't think the date of those stamps is that relevant, and I said so, but I think the fact that a dodgy Twitter account posts them, and then you choose to echo that seems quite an odd thing to do with no real meaning or particular analysis to add to it. I have no doubt you're an anti-fascist fwiw, but the meaning of that isn't always that clear without clarification, and can also obscure other politics or act as a narrow lens through which to see everything.

Not sure I can be arsed to engage in an extended back and forth on this tbh, but cheers for replying. I expect we might just have different emphasis due to slight political difference and backgrounds, but broadly on the same page, especially if the discussion wasn't internet based...!

 

[RD2003]

How and what does your opposition to Zelinsky and influence of fascist groups in Ukraine mean or express itself now though in the face of a Russian invasion, apart from just repeatedly posting there's fascists in Ukraine, some with real influence, which nobody on here has denied. I don't think the date of those stamps is that relevant, and I said so, but I think the fact that a dodgy Twitter account posts them, and then you choose to echo that seems quite an odd thing to do with no real meaning or particular analysis to add to it. I have no doubt you're an anti-fascist fwiw, but the meaning of that isn't always that clear without clarification, and can also obscure other politics or act as a narrow lens through which to see everything.

Not sure I can be arsed to engage in an extended back and forth on this tbh, but cheers for replying. I expect we might just have different emphasis due to slight political difference and backgrounds, but broadly on the same page, especially if the discussion wasn't internet based...!

Again only speaking for myself here, but if we acknowledge that this forum is only a talking shop, support or opposition to Zelinksky is nothing more than a reflection of our own political preferences? It's possible to oppose the invasion and point out that Zelinsky is a tool of neo-liberal capitalism, if not a neo-liberal zealot himself.

The date of the stamps is relevant in that it clearly reflects the way those in power at the time, and, if the ambassador to Germany's comments are anything to go by, those in power now, regard Bandera as a legitimate national symbol. Similarly they defend Azov.

I know nothing about the Twitter account that highlighted the stamps, but 'dodgy' is too often used to simply mean 'somebody I don't agree with.'

 

[The39thStep]

How and what does your opposition to Zelinsky and influence of fascist groups in Ukraine mean or express itself now though in the face of a Russian invasion, apart from just repeatedly posting there's fascists in Ukraine, some with real influence, which nobody on here has denied. I don't think the date of those stamps is that relevant, and I said so, but I think the fact that a dodgy Twitter account posts them, and then you choose to echo that seems quite an odd thing to do with no real meaning or particular analysis to add to it. I have no doubt you're an anti-fascist fwiw, but the meaning of that isn't always that clear without clarification, and can also obscure other politics or act as a narrow lens through which to see everything.

Not sure I can be arsed to engage in an extended back and forth on this tbh, but cheers for replying. I expect we might just have different emphasis due to slight political difference and backgrounds, but broadly on the same page, especially if the discussion wasn't internet based...!

As always face to face discussion is always better than online and yes it may be a question of emphasis and yes may be on the same page etc. However just because we are on the internet lets not glaze over the fact that there has been debate on here as to how much influence the fascists have had in Ukraine and there have been posters who have argued the standard post invasion narrative that Azov only has a few far right elements and anyway are part of the Ukraine military and therefore subject to all sorts of check and balances. Others have just pointed to the far right in Russia as a tit for tat ( actually there is an interesting convergence of far right activists in Ukraine whose origins are in Russian fascism) . In that sense, there has been a denial or at least a 'nothing to see here as its inconvenient' position.

The post regarding the stamps, with the comment 'more humour', was a necessary riposte to a previous post that there were some Ukrainians with an 'ironic' sense of self effacing humour naming vehicles after Bandera . Bandera , despite the present revisionist attempts, including the Ukrainain ambassador to Germany, to rehabilitate/reposition him is generally seen internationally as a war criminal. Personally, I'd place the actual issue of state printing stamps with the head of a fascist war criminal on a little higher than a Twitter account. However, horses for courses.

 

[scalyboy]

Bushell was allegedly a member and financial contributor to the National Front , also a contributor to Friends of Moseley. In Mathew Collins book he is described as Mr X.

Slight derail, but thanks for this, as I too had no idea.

I've just ordered s/hand copies of Bushell's 'Hoolies' and Matthew Collins' 'Hate: My Life in the Far Right'.

As far as 'Hoolies' goes (83 pence + postage!), I'm with Pickman's model re. "know your enemy"; I had a book on David Copeland for much the same reason. It was by no means sympathetic at all, but examined his childhood, upbringing, and how he was first drawn to the far right. It was all quite illuminating - a teenage fear of being thought gay, the feeling he'd been a disappointment to his father, a loner and virgin etc etc.

​

 

[krtek a houby]

Slight derail, but thanks for this, as I too had no idea.

I've just ordered s/hand copies of Bushell's 'Hoolies' and Matthew Collins' 'Hate: My Life in the Far Right'.

As far as 'Hoolies' goes (83 pence + postage!), I'm with Pickman's model re. "know your enemy"; I had a book on David Copeland for much the same reason. It was by no means sympathetic at all, but examined his childhood, upbringing, and how he was first drawn to the far right. It was all quite illuminating - a teenage fear of being thought gay, the feeling he'd been a disappointment to his father, a loner and virgin etc etc.

​

This fear of being thought of as gay... it's why kids need to be taught at school that being gay is perfectly normal and that there is nothing wrong with it.

It can mess you up, being uncertain of sexuality and fed the lie to that it's bad or weird to be LGBT.

 

[The39thStep]

Slight derail, but thanks for this, as I too had no idea.

I've just ordered s/hand copies of Bushell's 'Hoolies' and Matthew Collins' 'Hate: My Life in the Far Right'.

As far as 'Hoolies' goes (83 pence + postage!), I'm with Pickman's model re. "know your enemy"; I had a book on David Copeland for much the same reason. It was by no means sympathetic at all, but examined his childhood, upbringing, and how he was first drawn to the far right. It was all quite illuminating - a teenage fear of being thought gay, the feeling he'd been a disappointment to his father, a loner and virgin etc etc.

​

Collins' book is a very entertaining read imo

 

[hitmouse]

As always face to face discussion is always better than online and yes it may be a question of emphasis and yes may be on the same page etc. However just because we are on the internet lets not glaze over the fact that there has been debate on here as to how much influence the fascists have had in Ukraine and there have been posters who have argued the standard post invasion narrative that Azov only has a few far right elements and anyway are part of the Ukraine military and therefore subject to all sorts of check and balances. Others have just pointed to the far right in Russia as a tit for tat ( actually there is an interesting convergence of far right activists in Ukraine whose origins are in Russian fascism) . In that sense, there has been a denial or at least a 'nothing to see here as its inconvenient' position.

The post regarding the stamps, with the comment 'more humour', was a necessary riposte to a previous post that there were some Ukrainians with an 'ironic' sense of self effacing humour naming vehicles after Bandera . Bandera , despite the present revisionist attempts, including the Ukrainain ambassador to Germany, to rehabilitate/reposition him is generally seen internationally as a war criminal. Personally, I'd place the actual issue of state printing stamps with the head of a fascist war criminal on a little higher than a Twitter account. However, horses for courses.

On the stamps thing, they're from 2009, not 2019, which I think is pretty significant, they're pre-Maidan. Interesting article here:

Bandera mythologies and their traps for Ukraine

Our discussion of history politics and mythmaking in Ukraine is desperately un-nuanced. We need to restore complexity to our understanding of social and cultural hybridity — past and present. Українською

www.opendemocracy.net

I think it is worth being clear about dates - you wouldn't take someone that seriously if they were getting the Johnson, Cameron and Brown governments mixed up, or giving UKIP's level of popularity in 2015 as a fact about the contemporary UK.

 

[scalyboy]

This fear of being thought of as gay... it's why kids need to be taught at school that being gay is perfectly normal and that there is nothing wrong with it.

It can mess you up, being uncertain of sexuality and fed the lie to that it's bad or weird to be LGBT.

I agree with you 100% - but from conversations with a good friend who was a secondary school teacher from around 2000-2015, there didn’t seem to be an absence of LGBT-positive elements to the curriculum (unlike when I was a teenager in the 70s when the subject went completely unmentioned).
But he noticed and would challenge a lot of the kids when they still used ‘gay’ as an adjective to mean something was second-rate, no good etc.

Maybe it’s different now, I don’t know. I have heard from someone who works at a sixth-form
college that his students are very open and accepting of non-hetero, non-cisgender identities, whether they are themselves identifying as gay, lesbian, bi, queer, genderfluid, trans etc or v accepting of classmates who do.

(sorry, this is a proper derail now)

 

[scalyboy]

I think it is worth being clear about dates - you wouldn't take someone that seriously if they were getting the Johnson, Cameron and Brown governments mixed up, or giving UKIP's level of popularity in 2015 as a fact about the contemporary UK.

I think this is right, especially given that - as you say - 2009 was prior to Maidan. Seems like there may have been a shift in opinion in Ukraine (and these shifts can happen fast - look at how until quite recently Swedes and Finns, when polled, were in favour of maintaining their decades-old neutrality and how quick that changed).

My view is that if most Ukrainians had a pro-Bandera, pro-Nazi, fascist worldview, they wouldn’t have voted for a Jewish president, or, put another way, Zelenskii wouldn’t have wished to lead a nation that was predominantly fascist in its outlook.

Saw a book recently about anti-Jewish pogroms in Ukraine c.1921 in the post-WW1, post-Russian Revolution confusion & disorder, with Whites & Reds fighting it out, Allied forces trying to eliminate Bolshevism etc. The author estimated there had been around 100,000 Jewish victims during this period.
So it’s not just the Holocaust.
I doubt Zelenskii is unaware of this recent history, so would he really have accepted the position of President in 2019 if he thought Ukraine hadn’t changed?

 

[The39thStep]

On the stamps thing, they're from 2009, not 2019, which I think is pretty significant, they're pre-Maidan. Interesting article here:

Bandera mythologies and their traps for Ukraine

Our discussion of history politics and mythmaking in Ukraine is desperately un-nuanced. We need to restore complexity to our understanding of social and cultural hybridity — past and present. Українською

www.opendemocracy.net

I think it is worth being clear about dates - you wouldn't take someone that seriously if they were getting the Johnson, Cameron and Brown governments mixed up, or giving UKIP's level of popularity in 2015 as a fact about the contemporary UK.

What if the Nazis had a time machine?

Whilst I agree with you about trying to be clear on dates , let's be even clearer that it wasn't me that said the stamps were from 2019. They were released to celebrate the centenary of his birth.

I've had a quick skim of that article, interesting is one word for it. What's your view as an anarchist on Bandera?

 

[The39thStep]

I think this is right, especially given that - as you say - 2009 was prior to Maidan. Seems like there may have been a shift in opinion in Ukraine (and these shifts can happen fast - look at how until quite recently Swedes and Finns, when polled, were in favour of maintaining their decades-old neutrality and how quick that changed).

My view is that if most Ukrainians had a pro-Bandera, pro-Nazi, fascist worldview, they wouldn’t have voted for a Jewish president, or, put another way, Zelenskii wouldn’t have wished to lead a nation that was predominantly fascist in its outlook.

Saw a book recently about anti-Jewish pogroms in Ukraine c.1921 in the post-WW1, post-Russian Revolution confusion & disorder, with Whites & Reds fighting it out, Allied forces trying to eliminate Bolshevism etc. The author estimated there had been around 100,000 Jewish victims during this period.
So it’s not just the Holocaust.
I doubt Zelenskii is unaware of this recent history, so would he really have accepted the position of President in 2019 if he thought Ukraine hadn’t changed?

I think your view in your second para is true , however, none is arguing that.

As for changing ever since his offing in Germany when he was being used by both MI6 and the CIA Banderas popularity has waxed and waned. Museums opened around the turn of the century ( there is actually one in London ), stamps were printed 2009, , over 50 statues were built ( most post 2010) , 2010 Hero of Ukraine awarded, 2010 Hero of Ukraine removed and a further move in 2018 by 74 MPs to reintroduce it. since 2015 and the decommunization programme some 34 roads and streets were named after him, and a public holiday January 1st for Bandera was introduced in 2018.

A 2021 poll showed that 70% of those interviewed in the West saw Bandera's activity as a historical figure to be positive for Ukraine, whereas in the east and south 54% and 48% of respondents saw his activity as negative for Ukraine. A 2022 poll in April showed 74% of Ukrainians now viewing him favorably.

From what I understand Zelensky's view is that for some he is a hero and that commemorations of both Bandera and his victims should both go ahead.

 

[Rob Ray]

States often overlook difficult or ugly aspects of public figures in order to focus on the role they can play in a useful national mythos (Britain's rather infamous selection of statues comes to mind). It's not necessarily evidence of very much. Ukraine also lauds Makhno as a hero of Ukrainian independence, for example - I don't think any of us would consider the Ukrainian State to be particularly pro-anarchist.

 

[The39thStep]

States often overlook difficult or ugly aspects of public figures in order to focus on the role they can play in a useful national mythos (Britain's rather infamous selection of statues comes to mind). It's not necessarily evidence of very much. Ukraine also lauds Makhno as a hero of Ukrainian independence, for example - I don't think any of us would consider the Ukrainian State to be particularly pro-anarchist.

I hate to ask but in what ways does Ukraine laud Makhno?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I live in Tavistock. Our local hero is Francis Drake, a slaver and a pirate. Nasty bit of work. But he's remembered for defeating Brexit, sorry, the Armada. Doesn't mean Tavi is full of slavers and pirates. Just too many with unenquiring minds when it comes to patriotism.

 

[RD2003]

There have been mixed reactions in Germany to the news that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy has recalled the country’s outspoken ambassador to Germany, Andriy Melnyk. Zelenskiy described the withdrawal in his video message on Saturday evening, as a “normal procedure”.

Melnyk had been stationed in Germany since 2015, almost twice the length of regular diplomatic postings. He had stoked controversy in Germany for refusing to mince his words over what he saw as reluctance on the part of the German government to arm Ukraine in its war against Russia.

Even before the war, he was an outspoken critic of the German establishment, accusing it of pandering to Russia, attacking in particular president Frank-Walter Steinmeier in 2021 for defending the now defunct Nord Stream II gas pipeline as one of the last bridges between Germany and Russia.

He was referred to as an “undiplomatic diplomat” after calling Chancellor Olaf Scholz an “offended liver sausage” after Scholz refused to travel to Kyiv after Steinmeier was uninvited over his pipeline remarks.

At the same time the 46 year old also won many plaudits for the staunch and passionate way in which he stood up for his country, becoming a regular and popular guest on TV chat shows.

But more recently Melnyk himself came under fire for praising the ultra nationalist and anti-Semite Stepan Bandera, who headed an organisation which was responsible for massacres and ethnic cleansing and collaborated with Nazi Germany. He is celebrated as a freedom fighter in western Ukraine. Critics in Germany have been quick to interpret Zelenskiy’s withdrawal of Melnyk as a reaction to the criticism.

Tributes to Melnyk have come from across Germany, including from the leading Green politician and deputy president of the Bundestag, Katrin Göring-Eckardt, who said he had earned Germans’ respect. “Andriy Melnyk has thrown his entire energy into his commitment to his country.

He is an unmistakable and tireless voice for a free Ukraine,” she said. But she added she did not share his views on Bandera. “But independently of that, I wish him all the best for him personally and for his future service and above all for his country,” she said.

Melnyk, an active Twitter user, has yet to comment on his withdrawal. However, he has been tipped for a post in the foreign ministry in Kyiv, with some reports out of Ukraine saying he may even be destined for the job of deputy foreign minister.

 

[RD2003]

I hate to ask but in what ways does Ukraine laud Makhno?

In imaginary ways.

 

[Rob Ray]

I hate to ask but in what ways does Ukraine laud Makhno?

He's pitched as a national independence hero and patriotic symbol.

 

[The39thStep]

He's pitched as a national independence hero and patriotic symbol.

Ok let me get this straight 'the Ukrainians laud Makhno because he is pitched as a national independence hero and patriotic symbol' .

How does this manifest itself exactly ?

 

[deeyo]

I hate to ask but in what ways does Ukraine laud Makhno?

he was minted in 2013.

On 25 October 2013, two new commemorative coins of Ukraine – “Olha Kobylianska” and “Nestor Makhno” – entered into circulation

On 25 October 2013, the National Bank of Ukraine put the commemorative coins into circulation to honor the memory of the outstanding figures in Ukrainian history and culture. “The National Ba...

bank.gov.ua

i think the stamps & notes the maknovists made back in the day were cooler.

 

[Rob Ray]

Statue in Hulyai Polye, museum, attempts to claim him from Ukrainian nationalists, that sort of thing. The main website on him had to do a section debunking the idea but you know what people are like, recuperation is just what people like to try and do to the historic dead. It's not exactly a weird phenomenon. Not being a Ukrainian speaker I don't know the current status of the thing but you're really interested in the back and forth there's always Google translate.

 

[The39thStep]

he was minted in 2013.

On 25 October 2013, two new commemorative coins of Ukraine – “Olha Kobylianska” and “Nestor Makhno” – entered into circulation

On 25 October 2013, the National Bank of Ukraine put the commemorative coins into circulation to honor the memory of the outstanding figures in Ukrainian history and culture. “The National Ba...

bank.gov.ua

View attachment 331542
i think the stamps & notes the maknovists made back in the day were cooler.
View attachment 331544
View attachment 331543

Ta. Didn't know that but I don't think we are quite into lauding territory are we.?

 

[hitmouse]

What if the Nazis had a time machine?

Whilst I agree with you about trying to be clear on dates , let's be even clearer that it wasn't me that said the stamps were from 2019. They were released to celebrate the centenary of his birth.

I've had a quick skim of that article, interesting is one word for it. What's your view as an anarchist on Bandera?

I dunno, I've never met the bloke! Obviously that's a joke, but there is some truth to it - like everyone else, I've been learning more about Ukraine recently, but I acknowledge that my understanding of Ukrainian history is pretty limited, I've never read a book-length text on 1930s and 1940s Ukraine or the way that part of history is remembered and recorded.
And I can see how that sounds like a copout, so if we're talking about Bandera the man himself then yeah, fuck him, but if we're talking about his historical memory and the way that it's taught and put to contemporary uses, I'm not totally confident I fully understand all the relevant context. I tend to agree with what Kevbad the Bad and Rob Ray say upthread, and I'm sure there's plenty of holes that can be picked in this analogy, but I've found myself thinking about Winston Churchill. As we all know, Churchill can be described in a way that makes him sound like a monster, and we know that interpretation of Churchill is not what most people learn about him. So fuck Bandera and fuck Churchill, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that anyone who calls Churchill a hero is doing so because they're in favour of poison gas in Iraq, famine in Bengal, troops sent into Tonypandy, admiration for Mussolini and the rest of it. If that makes sense?

A 2021 poll showed that 70% of those interviewed in the West saw Bandera's activity as a historical figure to be positive for Ukraine, whereas in the east and south 54% and 48% of respondents saw his activity as negative for Ukraine. A 2022 poll in April showed 74% of Ukrainians now viewing him favorably.

Oh, in the West of Ukraine, for a second I'd read that as meaning 70% of people in Western Europe.

Ok let me get this straight 'the Ukrainians laud Makhno because he is pitched as a national independence hero and patriotic symbol' .

How does this manifest itself exactly ?

What deeyo and Rob Ray said, pretty much. See also the Nestor Makhno business prize:

The Nestor Makhno Prize – Ukraine Finance

I don't see what's so surprising about that - it doesn't seem that different from the French state celebrating Louise Michel, or the Republic of Ireland celebrating Connolly despite not quite being the workers' republic he would've wanted. Speaking of centenaries, the President of Mexico is currently celebrating the 100-year anniversary of Ricardo Flores Magon's birth:

https://presidente.gob.mx/presidente-destaca-apoyo-de-gobernadoras-y-gobernadores-al-proyecto-de-transformacion/

 

[JimW]

the Nestor Makhno business prize

Oh to be living in such times

 

[JimW]

The Jiang Qing scholarship for women in the arts.

 

[The39thStep]

Statue in Hulyai Polye, museum, attempts to claim him from Ukrainian nationalists, that sort of thing. The main website on him had to do a section debunking the idea but you know what people are like, recuperation is just what people like to try and do to the historic dead. It's not exactly a weird phenomenon. Not being a Ukrainian speaker I don't know the current status of the thing but you're really interested in the back and forth there's always Google translate.

Yes seen that and the Makhno festival run by the ex-government minister for policing , read about one of the Third Sector tents in Maiden with his image on and how one of the social mutual aid battalions has named a machine gun after him etc . However its a real stretch to say that this is lauding. There was a survey in Ukraine done about naming three famous Ukranians , and Makhno got less than 1%. I know this Ukrainian woman over here ( her parents are Ukranian she was born here) , obviously she's not the oracle for everything Ukraine but she is politically involved with Left Bloc and when I asked her about Makhno and Ukraine she just dismissed him as something that students read about. Like a lot of people attracted to working class politics and history, I had a soft spot for him but unfortunately, I don't really think outside of the anarchist scene he has much of a legacy tbh.

 

[The39thStep]

I dunno, I've never met the bloke! Obviously that's a joke, but there is some truth to it - like everyone else, I've been learning more about Ukraine recently, but I acknowledge that my understanding of Ukrainian history is pretty limited, I've never read a book-length text on 1930s and 1940s Ukraine or the way that part of history is remembered and recorded.
And I can see how that sounds like a copout, so if we're talking about Bandera the man himself then yeah, fuck him, but if we're talking about his historical memory and the way that it's taught and put to contemporary uses, I'm not totally confident I fully understand all the relevant context. I tend to agree with what Kevbad the Bad and Rob Ray say upthread, and I'm sure there's plenty of holes that can be picked in this analogy, but I've found myself thinking about Winston Churchill. As we all know, Churchill can be described in a way that makes him sound like a monster, and we know that interpretation of Churchill is not what most people learn about him. So fuck Bandera and fuck Churchill, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that anyone who calls Churchill a hero is doing so because they're in favour of poison gas in Iraq, famine in Bengal, troops sent into Tonypandy, admiration for Mussolini and the rest of it. If that makes sense?

Oh, in the West of Ukraine, for a second I'd read that as meaning 70% of people in Western Europe.

What deeyo and Rob Ray said, pretty much. See also the Nestor Makhno business prize:

The Nestor Makhno Prize – Ukraine Finance

I don't see what's so surprising about that - it doesn't seem that different from the French state celebrating Louise Michel, or the Republic of Ireland celebrating Connolly despite not quite being the workers' republic he would've wanted. Speaking of centenaries, the President of Mexico is currently celebrating the 100-year anniversary of Ricardo Flores Magon's birth:

https://presidente.gob.mx/presidente-destaca-apoyo-de-gobernadoras-y-gobernadores-al-proyecto-de-transformacion/

Look I like an analogy as much as the next man but as you say most people who call Churchill a hero do so despite all of those things you've listed not because of them which is not the case with many Bandera supporters.

Despite your , and your cohorts , reassurances, on the sort of lines that this sort of thing happened everywhere, the sheer number of memorials, statues, plaques, and street names in honor of fascists in Ukraine is still of concern to me. I want the Russians out of Ukraine but I'd also like the fash and their historical memory out as well.




This is in Ternopil which also commemorates the founding of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) with a promenade, a memorial, and also a street named after them. It also has a stadium named ( in 2021) after Roman Shukhevych the de facto leader of the Bandera wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists.

I might come back, at some point, to the 1st Galician and how 8000 of them ended up in the UK after the war.

 

[RD2003]

I might come back, at some point, to the 1st Galician and how 8000 of them ended up in the UK after the war.

I'd almost swear I worked with one or two of them in a factory when I was 18-19...

A wider point than just Ukraine-in my experience, most westerners who haven't spent any/much time there would raise their eyebrows at the extent of anti-semitism not just in Ukraine, but also Russia and quite possibly all of the former eastern bloc. It's well known how the Communist Party regimes dampened it and fanned the flames as and when it suited, reaching back through centuries of anti-Jewish sentiment. Anti-semitism surfaces in the most seemingly unlikely of people. Among people I've known personally, Poles (otherwise nice people) were the worst anti-semites, although I'm not sure how much of a general thing this was. I do seem to remember a prominent Solidarnosc leader attacking the Communist regime on the basis of it being, allegedly, 'full of Jews.' Don't think the Polish Catholic church, despite nice-sounding official pronouncements, has a proud record on this.