Fascist attack on SWP in Lewisham

[Red Storm]

Whilst there's a large element of truth in that, it's also the case that the SWP have an extremely poor record of defending their own members or of organising even minimal levels of security - even in circumstances where they have come under sustained attacks from the far right. From personal experience, I know the leadership/organisers have even gone so far as to deny/cover-up the fact that attacks have happened, simply for the reason that the alternative - organising some sort of response - was in their eyes worse.

That said, this will probably turn out to be a one off/bit of opportunism - the EDL haven't the capability of organising this kind of thing on any sustained basis, in my view.

I agree on both points.

 

[DrRingDing]

SWP members need to realise their bosses in the central committee will never endorse the use of effective security. It would be naive to think this is a one off incident.

Members themselves will need to do this from the ground up and out of the sight of their hierarchy.

 

[past caring]

It would be naive to think this is a one off incident.

Why? I am not suggesting, btw, that EDL members elsewhere may not occasionally engage in similar opportunism - but what is the evidence to suggest that they'd be capable of initiating an organised/sustained campaign of such attacks?

 

[DrRingDing]

Why? I am not suggesting, btw, that EDL members elsewhere may not occasionally engage in similar opportunism - but what is the evidence to suggest that they'd be capable of initiating an organised/sustained campaign of such attacks?

I wouldn't expect it to be organised more than between small local groups but there's obviously desire for more of this sort of action.

 

[past caring]

I desire all sorts of things - my ability to achieve them, however, is limited by facts on the ground. What makes you think that even small local groups would not come a cropper if trying to pull this kind of thing off on a sustained basis?

 

[DrRingDing]

I desire all sorts of things - my ability to achieve them, however, is limited by facts on the ground. What makes you think that even small local groups would not come a cropper if trying to pull this kind of thing off on a sustained basis?

Small bands of fucknuts can do opportunistic hits on sitting swappie ducks a piece of piss.

 

[Red Storm]

Small bands of fucknuts can do opportunistic hits on sitting swappie ducks a piece of piss.

Why haven't they been doing it every weekend in every city for the past 18 months then?

 

[DrRingDing]

Why haven't they been doing it every weekend in every city for the past 18 months then?

Why do you think that?

 

[Red Storm]

Why do you think that?

Because they haven't

 

[DrRingDing]

But why?

 

[butchersapron]

But why?

Lack of significantly committed membership (physically, ideologically etc) with a network to enable such sustained attacks and support those prepared to engage in them - pre and post attack. You know, what was suggested above as to why this probably doesn't indicate the start of such a program really.

 

[Red Storm]

But why?

Many reasons. They're not organised enough, they don't want legal repercussions, they have better things to do on a Saturday morning, they're not political committed enough to engage in violence.

Whilst the average EDL member is more than a match for the average Swappy this isn't the whole picture. The fact is that they aren't highly organised at a local level, thus, can't attack the SWP every weekend. I also don't think the EDL wants to smash the SWP off the streets, it hasn't been their political strategy largely because they don't seem to have a political strategy.

 

[Ranbay]

This was a revenge attack for last weeks made up story of some kid getting hit with a bottle at MFE in Brighton.

 

[bignose1]

This could be the begining of a two tier approach within the EDL(generic) 'ranks'. Ive had it on good authority that the big away days for some in the EDL hierarchy are becoming a bit of a liability. Of course the street activity will continue but there are elements who want to take it to the left/antis. The decision to get on board with the BFP by some of th EDL leadership hasnt gone down that well with some in the movement but there has been a nod and a wink to say dont worry were still 'street'..carry on. Ive a feeling this incident may be tied, emotionally to what happened in Brighton but the left have been targetted recently ie in Liverpool earlier in the year...so the left can be considered legitimate targets. The defection of elements of Liverpool BNP ie the Tierneys to the NF means that they have been given a gloves off green light to go on the attack/assault without fear of censure from within their own ranks. The NF getting into the fray with the EDL more so recently may have added to the mix. I know Im pretty old school about this considering my own personal background...but the template is there....

 

[butchersapron]

You've touched on something i was going to post about on the BNP thread - the possibility of the newly resurgent NF (well a good crowd of candidates anyway) attempting to put down some sort of serious marker now that things seem to be a bit up in the air.

 

[malatesta32]

The lewisham thing was seen as ‘revenge’ and the girl who was crowing has gone to ground. The SWP need to be aware of this situation. It happened last year in oldham and i think manchester or somewhere like that. It is opportunism rather than mass organisation. With mr tommy officially signing up to the fluffy fascist British freedom then the EDL are going to have to take it down a notch as it is going to be politically undesirable to be aligned to a bunch of violent, pissed up soccer teams fans!

 

[Red Storm]

This could be the beginings of a two tier approach within the EDL(generic) 'ranks'. Ive had it on good authority that the big away days for some in the EDL hierarchy are becoming a bit of a liability. Of course the street activity will continue but there are elements who want to take it to the left/antis. The decision to get on board withthe BFP by some of th EDL leadership hasnt gone down that well with some in the movement but there has been a nod and a wink to say dont worry were still 'street'..carry on. Ive a feeling this incident may be tied, emotionally to what happened in Brighton but the left have been targetted recently ie Liverpool earlier in the year...so the left will be considered legitimate targets. The defection of elements of Liverpool BNP such like the Tierneys to the NF means that they have been given a gloves off green light to go on the attackm without fear of censure from their own. The NF getting into the fray recently may have added to the mix.

I don't think the Liverpool BNP defection to the NF will change much. Liverpool BNP was largely autonomous for a while. Also, the Tierneys weren't really doing much physical stuff anyway. Liverpool NF has seemed to have grouped all the neo-Nazis there like Pinkham etc into one grouping but Pinkham would have been doing what ever he wanted in the NF or out of the NF.

 

[Red Storm]

You've touched on something i was going to post about on the BNP thread - the possibility of the newly resurgent NF (well a good crowd of candidates anyway) attempting to put down some sort of serious marker now that things seem to be a bit up in the air.

I'm not convinced.

They've had a boost with the defection of Liverpool BNP and the Infidels split in the EDL.

But they've not got the brand name of the BNP and are too white power to do well in elections. I don't think they've got the numbers or the will to engage in street activity.

 

[malatesta32]

also dunno if you saw the bbc online thing with carlos cortiglia (bnp mayor) just now going in his clearly un-english accent - 'there are too many immigrants!' check yr passport mate!

 

[malatesta32]

NF have a couple of stronholds but not like the BNPs infrastructure or cash etc. dont forget the fluffies, EDs UkIP etc are all guaranteed vote stealers.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not convinced.

They've had a boost with the defection of Liverpool BNP and the Infidels split in the EDL.

But they've not got the brand name of the BNP and are too white power to do well in elections. I don't think they've got the numbers or the will to engage in street activity.

They're irrelevant electorally, it's all over on that front. However, recent momentum would suggest to me some pathetic desperate stunt to try and keep the ball rolling would/should be on the cards. Not 'war' as they are not capable of that, but a few isolated thingsto get their name back in the headlines (and i think you may well be underestimating the residual power of their brand name). The real danger with this would be the BNP people still attracted to the race angle pressuring their leadership to keep pace at a time when griffin is scrambling around to find ways to gather committed people around him. This, of course, would go against the last 15 years of BNP development, but desperate people...

 

[fiannanahalba]

I don't think the Liverpool BNP defection to the NF will change much. Liverpool BNP was largely autonomous for a while. Also, the Tierneys weren't really doing much physical stuff anyway. Liverpool NF has seemed to have grouped all the neo-Nazis there like Pinkham etc into one grouping but Pinkham would have been doing what ever he wanted in the NF or out of the NF.

After Saturday and the Liverpool Antifascists taking it to Tierney's door with a successful picket on his shop, we shall see if the Liverpool fascists want to or can counter as they promised they would if Liverpool Anti fascists did this.

 

[Red Storm]

They're irrelevant electorally, it's all over on that front. However, recent momentum would suggest to me some pathetic desperate stunt to try and keep the ball rolling would/should be on the cards. Not 'war' as they are not capable of that, but a few isolated thingsto get their name back in the headlines (and i think you may well be underestimating the residual power of their brand name). The real danger with this would be the BNP people still attracted to the race angle pressuring their leadership to keep pace at a time when griffin is scrambling around to find ways to gather committed people around him. This, of course, would go against the last 15 years of BNP development, but desperate people...

I hear ya. I could imagine a few isolated things.

Seems like the BNP could be leaking radicals to the NF and those wanting a cleaner image to the English Dems.

 

[Red Storm]

After Saturday and the Liverpool Antifascists taking it to Tierney's door with a successful picket on his shop, we shall see if the Liverpool fascists want to or can counter as they promised they would if Liverpool Anti fascists did this.

That was a good action by LiverAF. Should have been done ages ago but it was good to see it happen.

 

[fiannanahalba]

This was opportune for two reasons. Liverpool Anti fascists are robust enough now and the Mayoral election with Tierney as NF candidate means it gains more publicity.

 

[Red Storm]

This was opportune for two reasons. Liverpool Anti fascists are robust enough now and the Mayoral election with Tierney as NF candidate means it gains more publicity.

Good to hear an improvement in LiverAF's abilities.

 

[bignose1]

I don't think the Liverpool BNP defection to the NF will change much. Liverpool BNP was largely autonomous for a while. Also, the Tierneys weren't really doing much physical stuff anyway. Liverpool NF has seemed to have grouped all the neo-Nazis there like Pinkham etc into one grouping but Pinkham would have been doing what ever he wanted in the NF or out of the NF.

Im not saying they were doing the physical stuff but certainly an immense amount of targetting. The defection to the NF will have an impact..albeit hard to quantify just yet. They got the shove partly bvecause of their associations with others deemed out of bounds...

 

[DrRingDing]

Lack of significantly committed membership (physically, ideologically etc) with a network to enable such sustained attacks and support those prepared to engage in them - pre and post attack. You know, what was suggested above as to why this probably doesn't indicate the start of such a program really.

They seem to be completely unwilling to do their homework. For instance on a strike day recently threats were given that the EDL were going to cause issues at the rally in town. Nothing came of it during the day. Later in the evening we found and followed a group of about 30 EDL. They left one pub and started to head towards a pub with a well advertised post strike Love Music Hate Racism gig on, chanting their delightful EDL ditties along the way. We called ahead to the LMHR lot to give them the heads up. The EDL occupied the pub directly opposite the gig. We joined the trots and prepared ourselves for a shoeing as we were completely out gunned. After an hour the EDL came out onto the street and it looked like it was going to kick off until they turned and headed back into town. They had no idea what was sitting in front of them. They hadn't bothered to do the simplest bit of research. All they did was do a bit of posturing before the strike and some swaggering around town on the night. I'm confident that if they had an inkling of what was going on over the road they would been there with bells on.

 

[malatesta32]

youre right doctor! they refer to cameron as a marxist and indeed everyone who dislikes them. they have no idea what it means. they also think uaf, trades councils, muslim youth, locals and militant antifash are all the same. when there is a massive difference. they are politically naive and use politics as a substitute for soccer violence. they were bleating about attacking the big TU march until it was pointed out that this is about jobs, public sector etc then they went oh ... really? eejits.

 

[past caring]

@ DrRingRing - Which supports the point I was making, rather than detracting from it.