Fascist attack on SWP in Lewisham

[goldenecitrone]

Cringeing vermin.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Thing is, given Swappie history, which elements of the membership are going to risk getting physical and then have the CC denounce them as "squaddists"?

I hereby denounce anyone who would denounce someone else for defending their mates from fascists.

 

[Red Storm]

I hereby denounce anyone who would denounce someone else for defending their mates from fascists.

I can sleep at night now.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I hereby denounce anyone who would denounce someone else for defending their mates from fascists.

Why denounce them?

Just lamp them instead.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Why denounce them?

Just lamp them instead.

Why denounce anyone?

It never fails to crack me up that these guys think that expulsion from a socialist party is a punishment. I'm gonna get Mrs Frank a denunciation for her birthday.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why denounce anyone?

Well, in the party political context, it's all about pour encourager les autres, isn't it?

It never fails to crack me up that these guys think that expulsion from a socialist party is a punishment.

It is, if you're a socialist of the same stripe as the party expelling you.

I'm gonna get Mrs Frank a denunciation for her birthday.

She'd probably prefer something less accusatory, to be fair.

 

[frogwoman]

maybe it's a punishment because a lot of their mates will still be in that party and maybe (or maybe not) being fed a load of shit about the circumstances of the expulsion? and because frequently being involved in parties like that is pretty important in people's lives, it will mean that if they go to demos or other events or groups they will have to see people who expelled them? you don't have to agree with the SWPs ideology to understand why someone might be pissed off by being expelled do you?

 

[SpookyFrank]

you don't have to agree with the SWPs ideology to understand why someone might be pissed off by being expelled do you?

No, but I am not going to be overly sympathetic to the victims of these denunciations. If they don't like the idea of being denounced they should either toe the line or, better still, refrain from joining an organisation who thinks that the expulsion of dissenting voices is a sensible approach to reasoned debate.

If I join the Russian Roulette Club I can't really complain when my enjoyment of their wide range of social activities is cut short by my getting shot in the head. Because shooting people in the head is what the Russian Roulette Club is all about.

 

[butchersapron]

I expect these so-called anti-fascists are anti-semites anyway.

 

[frogwoman]

If they don't like the idea of being denounced they should either toe the line or, better still, refrain from joining an organisation who thinks that the expulsion of dissenting voices is a sensible approach to reasoned debate.

maybe they didn't know?

 

[SpookyFrank]

And lets not forget that these denunciations are a hangover from the days when the consequences were a little bit more serious than missing out on trips to the pub.

 

[SpookyFrank]

maybe they didn't know?

 

[audiotech]

LOL and this from the poster whose glare has been known to cause fash to go weak at the knees and members of militant to recant. Trust you take this in the spirit that its meant lone groover

Sure mush. I ended up on my knees once, with a black eye from some fash twat. 1981, Giro Jamboree, an alternate to the wedding of the King and Di. Told a gaggle of the tossers to fuck off down t'palace, they weren't welcome here. The two wevolutionary, anti-fascists with me just stood there like melons.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Thing is, given Swappie history, which elements of the membership are going to risk getting physical and then have the CC denounce them as "squaddists"?

The percentage of current SWP members who are even dimly aware of the "squaddist" expulsions 30 fucking years ago is likely to be minimal to say the least. It would have zero bearing on the actions of some random SWP member who happened to be on the scene of an incident like this.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I'd say that you'd need to add commitment, organisational ability and a reasonable degree of intelligence/ability to plan. But that's by the by - so far, they've not even shown much by way of determination.

I suspect that with most of London and other major British cities covered by CCTV cameras, a sustained campaign of assaults on paper sales, which are almost always on busy high streets, would also require the ability to support prisoners before very long.

 

[Red Storm]

The percentage of current SWP members who are even dimly aware of the "squaddist" expulsions 30 fucking years ago is likely to be minimal to say the least. It would have zero bearing on the actions of some random SWP member who happened to be on the scene of an incident like this.

I'd wager you'd be wrong on that one. Squaddism was the line Troted out at Manchester Anti-Fascist Alliance by the SWP. They were particularly sectarian towards us although some of their more decent members were friendly.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I'd wager you'd be wrong on that one. Squaddism was the line Troted out at Manchester Anti-Fascist Alliance by the SWP. They were particularly sectarian towards us although some of their more decent members were friendly.

I'm sure that some fulltimer was aware of the origins of the term, but you don't have to be aware of the history of the ANL Mk1 and the expulsions 30 years ago to understand that the SWP counterposes "mass action" to "small group etc etc". And believe me, 90% of SWP members are not aware of that history.

Why would they be? The SWP is not big into that sort of internal education and many of their members wouldn't even have been born then.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The percentage of current SWP members who are even dimly aware of the "squaddist" expulsions 30 fucking years ago is likely to be minimal to say the least. It would have zero bearing on the actions of some random SWP member who happened to be on the scene of an incident like this.

What was it George Santayana said about history, Nigel?

 

[Red Storm]

I'm sure that some fulltimer was aware of the origins of the term, but you don't have to be aware of the history of the ANL Mk1 and the expulsions 30 years ago to understand that the SWP counterposes "mass action" to "small group etc etc". And believe me, 90% of SWP members are not aware of that history.

Why would they be? The SWP is not big into that sort of internal education and many of their members wouldn't even have been born then.

But the rank and file need to be informed of the SWP position, comrade.

In Manchester they had to be informed of why MAFA was bad and the line was we were Squaddists.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

But the rank and file need to be informed of the SWP position, comrade.

In Manchester they had to be informed of why MAFA was bad and the line was we were Squaddists.

And I very much doubt if that information started with an explanation of the ins and outs of expulsions 30 years ago. It will have been "the SWP is in favour of mass action, comrade, not elitist actions by small squads...".

The split with what became Red Action looms about as large in the minds of the SWP membership as the splits with the RDG, Andy Wilson ISG, the Higgins/Protz group, Workers Power, Workers Fight, RCG, etc. Which is to say the vast majority of them don't know and don't care.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But the rank and file need to be informed of the SWP position, comrade.

In Manchester they had to be informed of why MAFA was bad and the line was we were Squaddists.

Were there loads of young Swappies mooching around looking puzzled and asking "Squaddist. Wot's that?" after the denunciation?

 

[discokermit]

And believe me, 90% of SWP members are not aware of that history.

Why would they be? The SWP is not big into that sort of internal education and many of their members wouldn't even have been born then.

i don't know the situation now but when i was in, late eighties/early nineties, swp history was regularly discussed informally. i knew about the matgamna split and the expulsions of the birmingham engineers even though they were well before my time.

 

[Red Storm]

Were there loads of young Swappies mooching around looking puzzled and asking "Squaddist. Wot's that?" after the denunciation?

Decent young ones didn't care.

In Manchester but they knew what the term meant and its historical significance. Perhaps the calibre of SWP members is higher in Manchester.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Decent young ones didn't care.

In Manchester but they knew what the term meant and its historical significance. Perhaps the calibre of SWP members is higher in Manchester.

That's about the best explanation I can think of, this side of Nigel telling us he pulled that 90% figure out of his arse.

 

[discokermit]

Where did I say that?

you didn't. i substituted something as you didn't actually make any concrete suggestions. the point still stands whatever you suggest.

Big northern lad, worked at the printshop, bad complexion - I worked there too - he got cabbaged by the BNP down Brick Lane at the point the SWP were trying to relaunch the ANL - 91? - 92? Following week, in Surrey Docks when we were supposed to be leafleting and two of us had seen a van load of BNP driving around, the local full timer denied the previous week's attack, accused us of sowing paranoia blah, blah. There were a number of other incidents around the same time, some of which I only became aware of later - precisely because local organisers were told to keep a lid on things.

that rings true. it always gets out in the end though.

 

[discokermit]

Decent young ones didn't care.

In Manchester but they knew what the term meant and its historical significance. Perhaps the calibre of SWP members is higher in Manchester.

most young revolutionaries want to batter fascists. then comes the talk with a senior member,

you shouldn't do that, it's squaddism.

what's squaddism?

blahblahblahredactionblahblahblah

who's red action?

blahblahblahsquaddistsblahblahblah.

 

[malatesta32]

the value in the small crop of militant antifascist books recently (and forthcoming) is that they can redress the balance, show a different take on antifascist history and put forward our side of the story rather than the likes of dave renton.

 

[Red Storm]

the value in the small crop of militant antifascist books recently (and forthcoming) is that they can redress the balance, show a different take on antifascist history and put forward our side of the story rather than the likes of dave renton.

What are the recent ones and what are the forthcoming ones?

 

[The39thStep]

What are the recent ones and what are the forthcoming ones?

Malatesta32: Hitler my part in his downfall

 

[malatesta32]

steps, it cd be his part in my downfall with this bloody book! red storm, i refer to no retreat, BTF, martin lux, k bullstreet and the superb forthcoming Militant Antifascism: 100 Years of Resistance by Malteser Tester!