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Far-right response to Southport Outrage And Ongoing Violent Disorder

Not going to disagree on soi-disant “community leaders” when it comes to police engagement on trust and confidence issues, which can be performative on both sides. But if there’s an obvious target to protect like a mosque in a small town, I’d trust the local police and the local community to field people who can talk practically together about plans and tactics.
we've already had the measure of you and what you say about trust here seems to put the seal on it.
 
Hang on, isn't this about fash rioting and spreading fear amongst communities?
What are we blaming antifa for? Was there a ruck by antifascists in response to this terrible tragedy?

Also, Antifa aren't ACAB either are they? Thats a very specific subset of people - and often aren't all that aligned to any particular progressive cause.
 
Clearly the fuckwits on the streets kicking off are far right bellends. That's not who Mojo is referring to though, is it.

No, you're right; I was specifically referring to the dozen or so people I've heard this week on the radio urgently promoting far-right talking points in the same breath as complaining that people call them far right. Also the hosts not pointing this out to them.
 
What do you exactly mean by 'unfettered' immigration? There are controls on immigration. Do you think our country could survive (in terms of health and social care, 'cleaning' in general, fruit and veg picking and hospitality, for example) without lots of immigrants? Emotive but otherwise meaningless words like 'unfettered' are exactly the problem.

Not at all. Clearly there are a multitude of ideas as to what constitutes acceptable immigration, from the open borders stuff we see espoused on here occasionally, to the 'deport the foreigners' brigade and everything in between. There will be differing views on these boards, let alone outwith them.

I don't really know what you mean. Is being tolerant of difference and accepting of oppressed minorities 'extreme', really? What do you mean by 'extreme wokeness'? And how is it a bad thing? It seems like buzzwords without substance at best.

Same answer. On another thread this morning one poster chastised another for using the word "moron" as being intellectually disablist. Personally, I think that's woke bollocks and modern life is littered with similar examples. People who laugh at such silliness are not necessarily far right.

Has it? How is it reasonable to be proud of something you had no control over, no input into? I mean, fine, if that floats your boat but it's not a sentiment that should be given any priority.

Again, that's your view (and mine, tbh) but it's a particularly intolerant position to take, to label those who take an element of pride in their nation or its endeavours, as far right. There are lots of people even on U75 who'll get behind the England sports teams etc.

I've got green eyes btw and we're by far the best minority, i think we need our own political party :thumbs: nobody would laugh at that now, would they?

I'd vote for you despite having brown eyes. Wokeness gone mad!
 
Same answer. On another thread this morning one poster chastised another for using the word "moron" as being intellectually disablist. Personally, I think that's woke bollocks and modern life is littered with similar examples. People who laugh at such silliness are not necessarily far right.

The whole narrative of 'woke bollocks' is an import from the US Right. Even if you think some peoples issues with stuff like language is daft you're still picking up on the language of people who absolutely aren't laughing at it because they're usually busy trying to push violently reactionary politics.
 
"Save the kids" either from muslims (despite no muslim stabbings happening) or from the transgender world order (which isn't happening either). A changing world overwhelming reactionary minds. Unfulfilled material conditions overseen by an out of touch bourgeousie, social media allowing organisation and lies to spread at lightspeed

TR is a delusional puppet. I have no sympathy for him, he's a cunt. But he's also a victim of his own hate. I'd still be happy to see him lose his passport and british citizenship however.
Support for the authorities removing British passports from those with dual citizenship is a very bad idea, even for people we hate. If they did it to TR/SYL, they'd sure as shit do it to people on the left. I'm disappointed to see so many people in favour of it.
 
"Save the kids" either from muslims (despite no muslim stabbings happening) or from the transgender world order (which isn't happening either). A changing world overwhelming reactionary minds. Unfulfilled material conditions overseen by an out of touch bourgeousie, social media allowing organisation and lies to spread at lightspeed

TR is a delusional puppet. I have no sympathy for him, he's a cunt. But he's also a victim of his own hate. I'd still be happy to see him lose his passport and british citizenship however
say what you want about syl but at least he's not a banned returner here. don't think he is anyway
 
Support for the authorities removing British passports from those with dual citizenship is a very bad idea, even for people we hate. If they did it to TR/SYL, they'd sure as shit do it to people on the left. I'm disappointed to see so many people in favour of it.

I'm not advocating for it with TR but the idea that they wouldn't do it to people on the Left anyway is a weird one. The state isn't waiting on permission to use oppressive powers, it's waiting for opportunity.
 
I'm just remembering the Met copper who was a member of National Action. Thats a genuine no fuzziness fascist group- not church n king mob with ideas but far more ideologically committed. How riddled do we recon the police are? not the thread for it I suppose but I have my suspicions.
 
Criticise the left for all its flaws and failures, but wokeness is an alt right phrase that's not worth engaging with.

Once again, this is a defensive far-left extremist position that's meaningless to those situated around the less insane part of the political spectrum.
 
Disagree.

An opposition to unfettered immigration and some of the extremes of "wokeness" that we're seeing now is not (necessarily) far right. It's just not far left. Pretty much no modern government has practiced 'open borders' and very few people of any political persuasion think it's a good idea.

The proud of being British thing has always been difficult. The right point out that the left decry English patriotism whilst if not encouraging, not condemning, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, or pretty much any other. Some will look at English colonialism as particularly long and brutal, but it's understandable that there'll be some resentment from centrists or the moderate right, who also despise the meatheads and fascists, that their country is racist/fascist/evil/despicable, etc etc...

I'm actually going to give this a proper response.


An opposition to unfettered immigration and some of the extremes of "wokeness" that we're seeing now is not (necessarily) far right. It's just not far left. Pretty much no modern government has practiced 'open borders' and very few people of any political persuasion think it's a good idea.

We don't have unfettered immigration, which is the current right wing belief. Its false though.


Only 14% of people in this country were born outside of the UK. This is generally in-line with our neighbours and below many of our allies including Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Belgium, Sweden, and Ireland where as much as 20% of the population can be born outside of their nations.

Asylum Migration is incredibly low, the majority are students (who are largely temporary) and those who are here on work visas. Breaking it down, the article shows Non-EU Migration but its representative.


Highest is work visas at 423,000 - these will require a sponsorship - so have obtained a sponsored employment position with a business or organisation that follows UK employment visa regulations such as filling in-demand industries, generally require a high level degree unless in specific critical demand industries such as healthcare. The critical demand list is flexible and changes regularly, outside of that you need to be highly qualified and have a sponsored job offer which is selective and hard. They also need the means to sustain themselves.

Next are students at 379,000, who for some weird ass reason became a target for immigration criticism. You want us to have a world class education system but they whinge about students. They are here to study, have to have an offer and sponsorship from a UK University, and have to have their annual course fees and living costs in the bank as part of their visa application. Thats between £30,000 and £60,000 per year depending upon the university. There is the work transition option but thats selective and the vast majority leave after study, only 8% stay on a grad visa and 11% on skilled worker routes (i.e. high demand/healthcare). This number fluctuates wildly year on year too.

Your 700k per year, well near 400k are students who are here for between 1-3 years. Its dense as hell.


Everything else, so asylum, marriage/couples/family, and other are between 20,000 and 80,000. Marriage and Couples Visas have high income attachments so are more for wealthy people, bringing family is not automatic so family visas are also restrictive.



So what are people moaning at? That we have a lot of work visas? Then educate more people and promote those industries. Its expensive to sponsor visas, most companies don't. Too many students? Idiotic. Asylum? Small minority. Couples? thats already discriminatory and a small minority. Family, also highly restrictive and a tiny minority.



The proud of being British thing has always been difficult. The right point out that the left decry English patriotism whilst if not encouraging, not condemning, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, or pretty much any other. Some will look at English colonialism as particularly long and brutal

You just answered your own question.
 
I’d trust the local police and the local community to field people who can talk practically together about plans and tactics.

Even by your standards this is abysmal.

Leave communities to it and hope cops help them…vacate the streets to the control of the far right…. militant anti fascists are motivated by hatred of the police…..confronting people who use violence to empower and build their organisations is bad…

All. Over. The. Shop.
 
Surely the common travel area would mean stripping SYL of his British passport would be meaningless as his Irish passport would still let him travel / reside in the UK
 
Once again, this is a defensive far-left position that's meaningless to those situated around the less insane part of the political spectrum.

Bollocks. I agree with klang wholeheartedly on this. It’s a stupid word that’s only used by the right, it brigades together all sorts of issues and undertakings and hot topics with inclusive language battles that should already have been won, and there is no reason for anyone on the centre to allow it into meaningful debate.
 
Once again, this is a defensive far-left extremist position that's meaningless to those situated around the less insane part of the political spectrum.

The use of 'woke' as a dismissive term originates on the US Far Right, it's in no way 'far-left' to be aware of that. The people who pushed it into common use would absolutely love you asserting that it is though.
 
I'm actually going to give this a proper response.




We don't have unfettered immigration, which is the current right wing belief. Its false though.


Only 14% of people in this country were born outside of the UK. This is generally in-line with our neighbours and below many of our allies including Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Belgium, Sweden, and Ireland where as much as 20% of the population can be born outside of their nations.

Asylum Migration is incredibly low, the majority are students (who are largely temporary) and those who are here on work visas. Breaking it down, the article shows Non-EU Migration but its representative.


Highest is work visas at 423,000 - these will require a sponsorship - so have obtained a sponsored employment position with a business or organisation that follows UK employment visa regulations such as filling in-demand industries, generally require a high level degree unless in specific critical demand industries such as healthcare. The critical demand list is flexible and changes regularly, outside of that you need to be highly qualified and have a sponsored job offer which is selective and hard. They also need the means to sustain themselves.

Next are students at 379,000, who for some weird ass reason became a target for immigration criticism. You want us to have a world class education system but they whinge about students. They are here to study, have to have an offer and sponsorship from a UK University, and have to have their annual course fees and living costs in the bank as part of their visa application. Thats between £30,000 and £60,000 per year depending upon the university. There is the work transition option but thats selective and the vast majority leave after study, only 8% stay on a grad visa and 11% on skilled worker routes (i.e. high demand/healthcare). This number fluctuates wildly year on year too.

Your 700k per year, well near 400k are students who are here for between 1-3 years. Its dense as hell.


Everything else, so asylum, marriage/couples/family, and other are between 20,000 and 80,000. Marriage and Couples Visas have high income attachments so are more for wealthy people, bringing family is not automatic so family visas are also restrictive.



So what are people moaning at? That we have a lot of work visas? Then educate more people and promote those industries. Its expensive to sponsor visas, most companies don't. Too many students? Idiotic. Asylum? Small minority. Couples? thats already discriminatory and a small minority. Family, also highly restrictive and a tiny minority.





You just answered your own question.

I'm not going to check your numbers as you've clearly put some work in there, so happy to take it all at face value.

What do you think UK immigration policy should be? Give us some figures.
 
It is utterly meaningless. Here's a list of things and people I've seen described as 'woke': not being able to debate politely, graphs, vegetarianism, tofu, Gary Lineker, Gareth Southgate, taking an interest in history, men talking about emotions, men taking good care of their health, assertiveness training for women, Around the World In 80 Days, black people on TV in general, England kits. I could go on.

Also, Spymaster is starting to remind me of the right-wing trolls we had on the political forum on the Hole site, who just signed up to play with liberals and didn't actually care about Hole, they just wanted a debate and people to argue with. I'm relatively new here but I get the impression this is what you guys are dealing with? He's here because he wants to find people to argue with and maybe poke the lefties a bit?
 
I'm not advocating for it with TR but the idea that they wouldn't do it to people on the Left anyway is a weird one. The state isn't waiting on permission to use oppressive powers, it's waiting for opportunity.
Yeah, I'm not sure a lot of the people advocating for it with TR have thought it through tbh. Although, as Elpenor says above, it'd make no odds in his case anyway since his Irish passport would allow him to stay in Britain.
 
The Mumsnet criteria for wokeness is particularly rich considering that the TERF contingent aren't known for being good at debate, or being reasonable, or being polite, or being willing to listen to the other side.

Sorry for the diversion. I should have known what was going on.
 
It is utterly meaningless. Here's a list of things and people I've seen described as 'woke': not being able to debate politely, graphs, vegetarianism, tofu, Gary Lineker, Gareth Southgate, taking an interest in history, men talking about emotions, men taking good care of their health, assertiveness training for women, Around the World In 80 Days, black people on TV in general, England kits. I could go on.

It's not exactly meaningless, making it a wholesale derogatory term makes it easier to use it as an attack line on actual issues.
 
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