Far-right response to Southport Outrage And Ongoing Violent Disorder

[Pickman's model]

If you ever meet him in real life he'll throw the book at you.

Fucking ladybird book tho, wouldn't injure anyone

 

[Pickman's model]

If the worst of the climate change projections come to fruition, and we see mass waves of refugees flooding into Europe, it seems feasible that we'll see 'One, two, many Bosnias' (to paraphrase a noteable revolutionary socialst...)

Keep an eye on the dire news about arctic ocean methane hydrates

 

[Pickman's model]

I hope we never see anything like the Bosnian Genocide here.

Halcyon days in comparison to what's to come

 

[Pickman's model]

What happened last week, as we all recognise, showed that there is clearly a substantial pool of people in the UK willing to listen to racist demagogues and opportunists who spread disinformation along the lines of 'Kill the enemy before they come to kill your kids.' While the two countries are vastly different both culturally and politically, it brought to my mind the former Yugoslavia, where exactly this happened, and without the intractable problem of social media.

I bickered my way across the old Yugoslavia with two different girlfriends during the 1980s on at least half a dozen visits (it was extremely cheap, and an interesting and, in parts, a pretty spectacular place for a holiday.) On the surface it was a stable country, full of mainly easy-going people. Crime rates were low, and the cities and towns generally safer than at home imo, but there was an ongoing political and economic crisis, which very quickly boiled over under the impact of outside events. There was, by the end of the eighties, a massive pool of relatively impoverished people, and while those who sought to exploit them along nationalist and ethnic lines often came from the very centre of political power, there is a clear parallel with what we are increasingly hearing from within our own political class, and those who have the support and potential to enter it, and a similarly vast pool of people who feel they have no hope and are only listened to by the nationalist demagogues. Theirs had armies and quickly-assembled armed militias on their side, and a weak political structure which eventually resulted in leading politicians calculating that the only way to save their own skins was through ethnically based politics. Outside the Communist Party there was a political void which was soon filled when it gave up the ghost, with an almost complete absence of a genuine left, and the pro-capitalist liberals soon brushed aside by the nationalists and their psycho ethnic cleansers, who were, as many accounts relate, able to drag many, many otherwise reasonable people into their orbit. Similar won't happen here in the forseeable future, but it's noteable that the very same anti-immigrant and hardline racist sentiments we were used to 40-50 years ago are still widespread, including in multi-racial cities, which is not a good sign for when the shit really hits the fan as it's likely to somewhere down the line. Both me and Mrs RD have noticed all week colleagues expressing the view that, 'They went about it the wrong way but they do have a point...' Many of our own would-be ethnic cleansers may be buffoons, but I expect it's the same in any country that cleverer, more politically experienced people than they manage to fracture along ethnic lines.

In the absence of a political alternative that can listen to and prise away a section of those among the forgotten elements of the working class who turn towards the racists, the long-term picture doesn't look that good.

In summary you're extrapolating here as you did from your skimpy knowledge of russia

 

[Humberto]

What happened last week, as we all recognise, showed that there is clearly a substantial pool of people in the UK willing to listen to racist demagogues and opportunists who spread disinformation along the lines of 'Kill the enemy before they come to kill your kids.' While the two countries are vastly different both culturally and politically, it brought to my mind the former Yugoslavia, where exactly this happened, and without the intractable problem of social media.

It's a really interesting comparison, and there are cynical operatives exploiting this. They certainly like to whip up a fury, and they did. 'Kill the enemy before they kill our kids'? There's those types around but there's those who don't much care what the outcome is, it's a lucrative job/status, one that comes with many connections. One of the problems of clickbait enterprise.
There's been a breakdown of society in many ways because of austerity (Randian/ideological), corruption and a cynicical divisive politics underpinning it. This during a time of a lot of immigration. Central government has stoked this deliberately for its own ends, to enrich themselves and keep the working-class away from any kind of voice/stake or even respectability. I mean the division helps only them, the ruling class. Fear is easy to spread when the country and its communities are run down: councils and public services in a poor state, inequality rising. Food banks usage etc.

I bickered my way across the old Yugoslavia with two different girlfriends during the 1980s on at least half a dozen visits (it was extremely cheap, and an interesting and, in parts, a pretty spectacular place for a holiday.) On the surface it was a stable country, full of mainly easy-going people. Crime rates were low, and the cities and towns generally safer than at home imo, but there was an ongoing political and economic crisis, which very quickly boiled over under the impact of outside events. There was, by the end of the eighties, a massive pool of relatively impoverished people, and while those who sought to exploit them along nationalist and ethnic lines often came from the very centre of political power, there is a clear parallel with what we are increasingly hearing from within our own political class, and those who have the support and potential to enter it, and a similarly vast pool of people who feel they have no hope and are only listened to by the nationalist demagogues.

Went there once before the war and found the place and people with much to recommend about it (family holiday). Anyway, I think a difference is the collapse of the Soviet Union occurred around the same time as the war in former Yugoslavia. I think it accelerated the disintegration in a polity that had only been extant since earlier in the 20th C. Ethnic antagonisms and terrirtorial rivalries may have been easier to fissure. Honestly you tell me, if you've time.

Theirs had armies and quickly-assembled armed militias on their side, and a weak political structure which eventually resulted in leading politicians calculating that the only way to save their own skins was through ethnically based politics. Outside the Communist Party there was a political void which was soon filled when it gave up the ghost, with an almost complete absence of a genuine left, and the pro-capitalist liberals soon brushed aside by the nationalists and their psycho ethnic cleansers, who were, as many accounts relate, able to drag many, many otherwise reasonable people into their orbit. Similar won't happen here in the forseeable future, but it's noteable that the very same anti-immigrant and hardline racist sentiments we were used to 40-50 years ago are still widespread, including in multi-racial cities, which is not a good sign for when the shit really hits the fan as it's likely to somewhere down the line. Both me and Mrs RD have noticed all week colleagues expressing the view that, 'They went about it the wrong way but they do have a point...' Many of our own would-be ethnic cleansers may be buffoons, but I expect it's the same in any country that cleverer, more politically experienced people than they manage to fracture along ethnic lines.


In the absence of a political alternative that can listen to and prise away a section of those among the forgotten elements of the working class who turn towards the racists, the long-term picture doesn't look that good.

There are some eerie parallels, it's hard to predict when flash points might occur. But as you say we in the UK are quite a way from that thankfully.

 

[RD2003]

In summary you're extrapolating here as you did from your skimpy knowledge of russia

Yeah, I'm really sorry for visiting these places and forming impressions that greater intellects can dismiss. Brings me more trouble than it's worth, although it's only trouble on here, so not too bad.

But let's not get into a derail.

 

[RD2003]

Went there once before the war and found the place and people with much to recommend about it (family holiday). Anyway, I think a difference is the collapse of the Soviet Union occurred around the same time as the war in former Yugoslavia. I think it accelerated the disintegration in a polity that had only been extant since earlier in the 20th C. Ethnic antagonisms and terrirtorial rivalries may have been easier to fissure. Honestly you tell me, if you've time.

I do have an opinion, but I don't think this is the thread.

 

[WouldBe]

Very probably a "Stupidest Person Of The Year" candidate.

Perhaps as well as having Darwin awards we could have dumbwin awards as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, I'm really sorry for visiting these places and forming impressions that greater intellects can dismiss. Brings me more trouble than it's worth, although it's only trouble on here, so not too bad.

But let's not get into a derail

Bring me sunshine in your smile. But until you can, at least bring me posts with paragraphs rather than brick walls, so I don't have to offer a cursory summary

 

[WouldBe]

There were 'problems' in Chesterfield on Wednesday. 2 people have been arrested, 1 for assault and the other for racial abuse.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a really interesting comparison, and there are cynical operatives exploiting this. They certainly like to whip up a fury, and they did. 'Kill the enemy before they kill our kids'? There's those types around but there's those who don't much care what the outcome is, it's a lucrative job/status, one that comes with many connections. One of the problems of clickbait enterprise.
There's been a breakdown of society in many ways because of austerity (Randian/ideological), corruption and a cynicical divisive politics underpinning it. This during a time of a lot of immigration. Central government has stoked this deliberately for its own ends, to enrich themselves and keep the working-class away from any kind of voice/stake or even respectability. I mean the division helps only them, the ruling class. Fear is easy to spread when the country and its communities are run down: councils and public services in a poor state, inequality rising. Food banks usage etc.


Went there once before the war and found the place and people with much to recommend about it (family holiday). Anyway, I think a difference is the collapse of the Soviet Union occurred around the same time as the war in former Yugoslavia. I think it accelerated the disintegration in a polity that had only been extant since earlier in the 20th C. Ethnic antagonisms and terrirtorial rivalries may have been easier to fissure. Honestly you tell me, if you've time.


There are some eerie parallels, it's hard to predict when flash points might occur. But as you say we in the UK are quite a way from that thankfully.

Oh we're rather closer than you suggest. Polities only extant since earlier in the c20? Have a look at the map of Europe in 1914 and another in 1939 and consider the differences - then look at 1945. All polities are born, thrive for a season and die. And whether the UK will survive the vicissitudes of the next 20 years, well we'll have to wait and see

 

[Humberto]

Oh we're rather closer than you suggest. Polities only extant since earlier in the c20? Have a look at the map of Europe in 1914 and another in 1939 and consider the differences - then look at 1945. All polities are born, thrive for a season and die. And whether the UK will survive the vicissitudes of the next 20 years, well we'll have to wait and see

A largely post WW2 European peace an outlier?

 

[Pickman's model]

A largely post WW2 European peace an outlier?

Peace is in the past

 

[ddraig]

Why are there riots in the UK and where are they taking place?

The killing of three girls in Southport has been followed by the UK's worst unrest in over a decade.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[RD2003]

Bring me sunshine in your smile. But until you can, at least bring me posts with paragraphs rather than brick walls, so I don't have to offer a cursory summary

Broken into paragraphs now, but under the impact of drink, so probably not satisfactorily.

 

[Humberto]

Broken into paragraphs now, but under the impact of drink, so probably not satisfactorily.

Go and eat an entire jar of pickled onions before you offend him.

 

[tim]

A largely post WW2 European peace an outlier?

The war in Ireland; the dictatorships in Spain and Portugal; Hungary 1956; the war in Greece in the 1940s and the Greek coup in 1973; the war in and subsequent division of Cyprus as well as the earlier war of liberation against the British; the 1961 Paris Pogrom; and the suppression of the Prague spring in 1968 were presumably all violent outliers within that greater outlier of tranquility.

 

[ruffneck23]

It's everywhere, in my local in green leaf (most expensive pub in the area)Surrey yesterday I heard a family talking, the daughter was like ' listen to my accent I'm as English as they come' ,the father then chipped in 'I'm not far right, just right' and it really depressed.me, although the bar staff who are much younger than me, thought it gross, which has given me hope.

Part 2, I'm pretty upset, met a couple about 3 months ago at the same pub and have been having a right laugh, but I was told by one of them tonight that I'm too political (I am), eta to add not in a rude or confrontational way, and that although we are mates, at least one of the couple, is the polar opposite to me (I'm a lefty and just want everyone to get on and help each other, but that doesn't seem in vogue around here).

I hate it, I'm feeling more and more isolated and silenced.

Back from pub sorry if that doesnt make much sense, will edit in the morning if need be.

 

[Humberto]

The war in Ireland; the dictatorships in Spain and Portugal; Hungary 1956; the war in Greece in the 1940s and the Greek coup in 1973; the war in and subsequent division of Cyprus as well as the earlier war of liberation against the British; the 1961 Paris Pogrom; and the suppression of the Prague spring in 1968 were presumably all violent outliers within that greater outlier of tranquility.

Yes that's what they were. Does that answer your question?

 

[Humberto]

The mind boggles sometimes with this place.

 

[tim]

Yes that's what they were. Does that answer your question?

Oh and I forgot the political violence in Italy and Germany in the 1970s and 1980s; all the repression that was going on in Albania all that dodgy Gladio stuff; abd last but not least the CIA backed coup d'etat in San Marino.

COUP D'ETAT AT S. MARINO REPUBLIC

A+Coup+d%27Etat+took+place+in+the+small+Republic+of+San+Marino.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis+Coup+was+caused%3F

www.britishpathe.com

 

[RD2003]

The war in Ireland; the dictatorships in Spain and Portugal; Hungary 1956; the war in Greece in the 1940s and the Greek coup in 1973; the war in and subsequent division of Cyprus as well as the earlier war of liberation against the British; the 1961 Paris Pogrom; and the suppression of the Prague spring in 1968 were presumably all violent outliers within that greater outlier of tranquility.

Vietnam, Mozambique, Angola.... There are probably several more, forgotten, conflicts and outright wars.

When people talk of peace they mean that their own society and those societies they can identify with were relatively peaceful. We have never had a world of peace, and now the chance of it seems to have slipped into the realm of dreams, not least because unchallenged capitalism means inevitable war. There's a whole industry built around it, and jobs depend on it.

But it's the potential for ethnic conflict within those societies that were previously perceived as eternally peaceful that we should be concerned with in this thread. That so many, even if relatively few, were prepared to (stupidly in the context) stick their necks out for race war is a concern. The conditions that gave rise to them are not going away, and will be exacerbated by what's probably coming.

 

[tim]

Yeah, I'm really sorry for visiting these places and forming impressions that greater intellects can dismiss. Brings me more trouble than it's worth, although it's only trouble on here, so not too bad.

But let's not get into a derail.

Yes, Holy Wisdom deliver us nostalgic ramblings!

 

[Humberto]

Oh and I forgot the political violence in Italy and Germany in the 1970s and 1980s; all the repression that was going on in Albania all that dodgy Gladio stuff; abd last but not least the CIA backed coup d'etat in San Marino.

COUP D'ETAT AT S. MARINO REPUBLIC

A+Coup+d%27Etat+took+place+in+the+small+Republic+of+San+Marino.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis+Coup+was+caused%3F

www.britishpathe.com

Are you having a pop at me, to try and make me look like I don't know what I'm on about?

Cos at the end of the day everyone here can see it.

There's been few wars whatever you say about Operation Gladio.. No famines. No real state against state ground incursions like we are seeing in Ukraine now.

Get to the point you shitbag.

I'm not sure where I said it's been a garden of eden like I never watch the news.

 

[RD2003]

Yes, Holy Wisdom deliver us nostalgic ramblings!

Not all that nostalgic for me. But having turned 60 I'm entitled to fucking ramble. Even though I look and feel (in my head) 35.

 

[tim]

Are you having a pop at me, to try and make me look like I don't know what I'm on about?

Cos at the end of the day everyone here can see it.

There's been few wars whatever you say about Operation Gladio.. No famines. No real state against state ground incursions like we are seeing in Ukraine now.

Get to the point you shitbag.

I'm not sure where I said it's been a garden of eden like I never watch the news.

Yes, I think everyone can see that you don't know what your talking about.

 

[Humberto]

Yes, I think everyone can see that you don't know what your talking about.

Why? Why do this?

 

[Humberto]

Yes, Holy Wisdom deliver us nostalgic ramblings!

Any time a conversation breaks out some babbling fool tries to intimidate you out of it.

Total bollocks.

 

[tim]

Why? Why do this?

SpeakingTruth to the Powerless.

 

[RD2003]

I think Humberto is trying to engage with other posters properly tonight and should be given a break.