Far-right response to Southport Outrage And Ongoing Violent Disorder

[krtek a houby]

Good post. I do agree with your analysis and the points raised, but you are too kind to the left. In my experience, albeit from the 90’s rather than the 70’s, it has actively contributed to its own irrelevance.

Its class composition, poor (abysmal) leadership, sectarianism, its conscious retreat away from the class and towards identity politics and it’s refusal to do the hard work has sealed its fate as much as what the state and the opposition has been able to achieve.

With a few notable exceptions - RA/AFA/IWCA, some of the anarchists, the Militant for a very short period - the inability of the left to adapt, to engage properly, to build credibility and effectively respond is a damning fact.

I don’t want to derail the thread - a conversation about ‘where now’ rather than ‘how have we got here’ is obviously more important. But the old adage about those not learning from history being doomed to repeat it does apply…

As the far right and affiliated appears to have social media sorted in their favour, how can they be engaged with properly?

 

[Karl Masks]

Countering that horrible fash bullshit:

View attachment 436284



Edit: Might not be Sunderland, sorry. Plumdaff says it could be Liverpool.

Should be everywhere

 

[ska invita]

But I don't remember anything quite as ugly as we're seeing now.

Lets keep some perspective....this is a relatively small number of people so far...and the racist street violence of the 70s and 80s and the constant danger experienced then doesn't yet compare to the current situation....

the question for me is how much is this all a taste of worse to come.... can it grow out of the EDL-esque silo.... anyone paying attention the last decade knows the wind is blowing behind new far right forces, the fascist creep is very real, not just here but across the world.

 

[Pickman's model]

Lets keep some perspective....this is a relatively small number of people so far...and the racist street violence of the 70s and 80s and the constant danger experienced then doesn't yet compare to the current situation....

the question for me is how much is this all a taste of worse to come.... can it grow out of the EDL-esque silo.... anyone paying attention the last decade knows the wind is blowing behind new far right forces, the fascist creep is very real, not just here but across the world.

The thing is shammer's miserable response will show you the sort of spiral we're in here, not more democracy to counter fascism but less, which will encourage it

 

[ska invita]

The thing is shammer's miserable response will show you the sort of spiral we're in here, not more democracy to counter fascism but less, which will encourage it

thats for sure, if Starmer is anything he's a natural authoritarian.
I have faith in the British public to stand up against any EDL surge though...writing the word Britain though reminds me whats happening in Ireland too...

 

[Wilf]

Lets keep some perspective....this is a relatively small number of people so far...and the racist street violence of the 70s and 80s and the constant danger experienced then doesn't yet compare to the current situation....

the question for me is how much is this all a taste of worse to come.... can it grow out of the EDL-esque silo.... anyone paying attention the last decade knows the wind is blowing behind new far right forces, the fascist creep is very real, not just here but across the world.

What worried me about the Hartlepool riot was that all the initial arrests were local people I.e. not bussed in fash activists. That's the worrying bit, the idea that a wide range of places might have a core of people ready to heed the call.

 

[Pickman's model]

thats for sure, if Starmer is anything he's a natural authoritarian.
I have faith in the British public to stand up against any EDL surge though...writing the word Britain though reminds me whats happening in Ireland too...

I too think the gbp will stand up against some edl nonsense. But where will shammerite authoritarianism lead?

 

[YouSir]

As the far right and affiliated appears to have social media sorted in their favour, how can they be engaged with properly?

The Right has certainly been far better (or at least better funded) when it comes to social media. Plus it's a grifters world, the Andrew Tates of it are very good at outpacing more measured, Left Wing content. That said it's also a chaotic sphere. It's very hard to predict what all the noise generated there actually leads to. The antivax stuff, the Bladerunners - lots of conspiracy stuff is influenced by Far Right propagandising but it leads people to random ends after running through the bog of conspiracism and random speculation. I don't think half of the people who want to cut down ULEZ cameras or fight the WEF are inherently Fascist even if that's what some of the nonsense generators they feed off want them to be. And numerically that block is almost certainly bigger than the Tommy Robinson, burn down a mosque lot.

Which doesn't say anything optimistic but it does show that the Right winning on social media doesn't necessarily amount to a coherent movement in their favour. Or anyone's really.

 

[klang]

I have faith in the British public to stand up against any EDL surge though

I can see the public resisting hate marches and riots to a certain extend....showing solidarity with peaceful marches etc.
What will be more difficult to analyse and resist will be a normalisation of racism. The concerened citizen line, an even less friendly neighbour environment, an othering and marginalising.
The whole I'm not a racist but thing.
Right wing as the new centre of politics.

This thread has already shown that people are prepared to take the concerns (but not the tactics) of racists and other right wingers seriously.

 

[klang]

Looking ag germany, the adf and other right wong and loon monday marches were not predominantly attended by thugs. It was concerned citizens.

 

[ska invita]

I too think the gbp will stand up against some edl nonsense. But where will shammerite authoritarianism lead?

ID cards and Facial Recognition.

I think a good number of people are going to end up in jail....TBF after the number of people around the left who have been banged up well over the odds in recent years I'm shedding no tears for that.

I know what you are really asking though....

 

[ska invita]

Looking ag germany, the adf and other right wong and loon monday marches were not predominantly attended by thugs. It was concerned citizens.

I think every state has its own particular history and dynamics though, so its likely wrong to make too close a comparison....if we get to that point in Britain and Ireland then that's a significant change

 

[YouSir]

On a side note, if the media and state put as much weight on Left Wing actions and marches as on Right ones then, based on numbers, they'd be saying we were 48 hours from a Communist revolution. The Right is still magnifying itself through access to power and media influence, it isn't surging up from the grass roots. That's something.

 

[ska invita]

On a side note, if the media and state put as much weight on Left Wing actions and marches as on Right ones then, based on numbers, they'd be saying we were 48 hours from a Communist revolution. The Right is still magnifying itself through access to power and media influence, it isn't surging up from the grass roots. That's something.

i couldnt agree more

 

[klang]

On a side note, if the media and state put as much weight on Left Wing actions and marches as on Right ones then, based on numbers, they'd be saying we were 48 hours from a Communist revolution. The Right is still magnifying itself through access to power and media influence, it isn't surging up from the grass roots. That's something.

Yes.
It always bugs me when people go on about how the left destroyed itself and how the rise of the new right is somehow the fault of the left . Sure, the left has been struggling and has to take a long hard look in the mirror, but the roll of media, mainstream politics, sm etc etc really can't be underestimated. Like you say, if there was more exposure of left wing politics and culture on mainstream media outlets a lot more people would at least be aware of an alternative to conservatism, nu labourm and right wing populism.

 

[tony.c]

For those of you who lived through the 70s, was it as bad then with the NF?

I think I was more concerned then, though the situation now might get worse.
In the 70s there were people from the organised working class, and minority groups, notably young Irish, who were prepared to physically take on the fascists on the streets.
The police were always on the side of the fascists and were more of a threat to anti-fascists.
Although I know the police are still racist, it seems at the moment they will take on the fascists. The fascists are attacking them too so they are going to react. Starmer's authoritarianism will mean he instructs the police to crack down on the fascists.
In the 70s some minority groups like most of the Bengali community in Brick Lane were mostly recent arrivals who were initially reluctant to be involved in physical resistance. Others like the Southall Sikh youth were held back by 'community leaders'. Both groups then learned they had to defend themselves. Today the minority groups are third and fourth generations who are British and aren't going to take shit.

 

[seeformiles]

I don't think the Irish would want him either. Maybe he can be dropped off somewhere between England and Ireland...

Bit unfair on the Isle of Man

 

[YouSir]

I think I was more concerned then, though the situation now might get worse.
In the 70s there were people from the organised working class, and minority groups, notably young Irish, who were prepared to physically take on the fascists on the streets.
The police were always on the side of the fascists and were more of a threat to anti-fascists.
Although I know the police are still racist, it seems at the moment they will take on the fascists. The fascists are attacking them too so they are going to react. Starmer's authoritarianism will mean he instructs the police to crack down on the fascists.
In the 70s some minority groups like most of the Bengali community in Brick Lane were mostly recent arrivals who were initially reluctant to be involved in physical resistance. Others like the Southall Sikh youth were held back by 'community leaders'. Both groups then learned they had to defend themselves. Today the minority groups are third and fourth generations who are British and aren't going to take shit.

I remember during lockdown when the right tried to react to BLM stuff in central London. They got completely battered. As you say, there's a lot of young lads who have absolutely no issue with getting involved in direct stuff, not much organising there though from what I can tell.

 

[planetgeli]

What worried me about the Hartlepool riot was that all the initial arrests were local people I.e. not bussed in fash activists. That's the worrying bit, the idea that a wide range of places might have a core of people ready to heed the call.

I know you're getting likes for this and I don't want to be picky or arsey but really? People don't realise that a town with 90,000 people might be able to rouse a few fash? They are fucking everywhere, they don't have their own special communities IRL. "Bussed in" - which is the bit that gets me - is a media trope applied forever against the Left. To mean 'non-representative'. It has no basis in truth. It's part of mythical consensus building. Othering people. "They" live "over there", not "here".

Well sorry but it's bollocks, always has been. It should be no surprise, in the age of the net, that organisation, mobilisation is easier.

Tl;dr? Yes there are fash in Hartlepool. And anywhere else of a similar size.

We need to show we're everywhere too.

 

[teqniq]

CWS:

 

[Rimbaud]

What worried me about the Hartlepool riot was that all the initial arrests were local people I.e. not bussed in fash activists. That's the worrying bit, the idea that a wide range of places might have a core of people ready to heed the call.

My impression is that Hartlepool and Sunderland have been centres of far right (formerly EDL) activity in the North East, part of why Hartlepool went Tory in 2019 and why Sunderland has been leaning that way more than Tyneside.

Not a defense of it but it isn't a coincidence that these places are significantly more left behind economically than Tyneside. Sunderland City Centre is really a thoroughly depressing place. Some of the far-right rioters are people with extremely limited horizons and haven't really interacted with people outside their very small world, this is a bigger part of it than economic grievance per se although it is obviously related. The far right stuff gives them some sense of belonging and meaning.

I used to go out with a girl from near Hartlepool and her local friends would complain about immigrants taking the jobs, when pressed for an example (as there are not many immigrants in that region) they could only name the Chinese takeaway. This is the level of parochialism we're talking about. I reckon it's gotten worse over the last decade or so of online conspiracy theories giving a lurid sense of righteousness and a sense of being part of a bigger movement against some nebulous dark forces. People getting online hasn't broadened horizons as digital optimists once expected but has instead reaffirmed parochial prejudices and twisted them into something strange and dangerous.

 

[Serge Forward]

Bit unfair on the Isle of Man

How about Beaufort's Dyke then?

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Bit unfair on the Isle of Man

I was thinking middle of the sea, no arm bands.

 

[LakieLady]

Nah. It lacks disdain for those who engage in the extremes of this behaviour.

You could reserve "woke" for those who do take it to extremes, in your opinion.

 

[lazythursday]

Well I am about to bus (train) myself across to Preston, where I have a long standing lunch engagement and will likely join the anti fascist gathering after. Not particularly looking forward to the train journey through east Lancashire which often features racist drunks on the average Saturday let alone today.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You could reserve "woke" for those who do take it to extremes, in your opinion.

That's just 'use "woke" exactly as you have been', though.

My challenge to Spymaster is to ditch the word altogether and never, ever use it again. But it's his job to work out how to do that. He could always try looking for some better politics.

 

[klang]

That's just 'use "woke" exactly as you have been', though.

My challenge to Spymaster is to ditch the word altogether and never, ever use it again. But it's his job to work out how to do that. He could always try looking for some better politics.

I'd rather he wokes till the cows come home and skip the usage of extreme left instead tbh

 

[steeplejack]

I used to go out with a girl from near Hartlepool and her local friends would complain about immigrants taking the jobs, when pressed for an example (as there are not many immigrants in that region) they could only name the Chinese takeaway. This is the level of parochialism we're talking about. I reckon it's gotten worse over the last decade or so of online conspiracy theories giving a lurid sense of righteousness and a sense of being part of a bigger movement against some nebulous dark forces. People getting online hasn't broadened horizons as digital optimists once expected but has instead reaffirmed parochial prejudices and twisted them into something strange and dangerous.

The football club is decent but unfortunately has a racist knuckle-dragger fringe in the support, which blew up spectacularly just before Covid, when black players of both teams were subject to racist abuse in a game against Dover.

Hartlepool has improved a lot since the 80s (nice gallery, really good marina / waterfront) but there are some strange characters around. A mixture of the post-industrial decline others have mentioned, robust pro-Brexit English nationalism, US rust belt-style military fetishism, and a parochial suspicion of outsiders in some parts. People there feel misunderstood by outsiders who in turn don’t understand them.

There are great folks there, but unfortunately the knuckle draggers & petty criminals make the headlines.

 

[Spymaster]

My challenge to Spymaster is to ditch the word altogether and never, ever use it again.

I'd rather he wokes till the cows come home and skip the usage of extreme left instead tbh

You just can’t please everyone.

 

[gosub]

Bit unfair on the Isle of Man

Their flag is 3/4 of the way there