England vs The Netherlands, Wed 10/7 @ 8pm (ITV)

[scalyboy]

My impression is that the atmosphere and interrelationships amongst the squad is really good, and credit to Gareth, I think he's been brilliant at both defending the team from the moaners, keeping faith in his squad which helps them have faith in themselves etc... no untouchable egos to unbalance the squad etc... they genuinely seem like a good bunch of people, and relatively down to earth for multimillionaires... they're going to go into Sunday from a really good starting place.

This is the thing. Southgate has brought about such a change, when you think of the frustration, sorrow and pain expended on watching England pre-Gareth, Christ it was like reading Dostoevskii. Somehow he’s managed to build a squad of young & talented lads who play for each other and not for their own glory. There’s an admirable humility about these boys.

I was sceptical before last night’s kick-off, thinking what an easy run England had had, struggling against average teams and having stuttered into the semis. But they showed composure and character after the early Dutch goal (in retrospect, going behind so soon may have been to England’s benefit - as it forced them to attack & brought them out of the standard safety-first defensive mode).

OK so if that was a penalty I’m a pangolin and if I was Dutch I’d be fuming - but England have had their own share of bad luck & poor decisions over the years, so I guess it all evens out in the great unfolding of time.

Spain still favourites but England can start on Sunday knowing they can match the best.

And whatever happens, Southgate deserves a knighthood for having ended the England penalties curse.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Yeah, a decade ago we had Fun Sponge Capello with no idea it was about to get even worse with Woy and the Big Sam farce. McLaren I'd quite forgotten about and with good reason. Sven did well due to having the huge luck to have some brilliant players who he still never got to a semi (insert Ulrika joke here).

These last years have been the best, apart from one mad summer in 96.

 

[kabbes]

Dutch not happy.

Euro 2024: Netherlands boss Ronald Koeman accuses VAR of 'breaking football' in defeat to England

VAR "breaking football". Bit rich coming from Koeman.

If anything is breaking football, it’s the current overzealous interpretation of offside that is ruling out exciting goals scored in the run of play because someone’s nose was 2mm in front of someone else’s foot. Why is it better to have extra time and penalties rather than encourage exciting wing play? England have had two stricken out in this tournament alone. Yes, they were offside as it is currently interpreted, but that just tells you that the current interpretation is stupid.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Koeman can fuck off, the blotchy twat. Last night was for Platty and Turnip Taylor

 

[Idaho]

I thought it was a very soft penalty, but I can't deny that if that challenge had happened in the middle of the pitch, it would have been an obvious foul.

 

[tommers]

The Killers did a brilliant thing at the O2 last night. Imagine the buzz!

 

[Ted Striker]

If anything is breaking football, it’s the current overzealous interpretation of offside that is ruling out exciting goals scored in the run of play because someone’s nose was 2mm in front of someone else’s foot. Why is it better to have extra time and penalties rather than encourage exciting wing play? England have had two stricken out in this tournament alone. Yes, they were offside as it is currently interpreted, but that just tells you that the current interpretation is stupid.

Do you prefer the (fairly obvious tbh) adjustment that would be more similar to hawk-eye, with a 'umpires call' zone?

That delineates VAR from being absolute 'refereeing by robot' to 'preventing egregious bad calls'. I think Ref's now prefer the current interpretation tho, as it removes from them the risk of making (and being the face of) a bad call.

 

[tommers]

Do you prefer the (fairly obvious tbh) adjustment that would be more similar to hawk-eye, with a 'umpires call' zone?

That delineates VAR from being absolute 'refereeing by robot' to 'preventing egregious bad calls'. I think Ref's now prefer the current interpretation tho, as it removes from them the risk of making (and being the face of) a bad call.

We should not be introducing more "discretion" into football. Either you're offside or you're not. It's easy. It's literally the one rule that's ok.

 

[Ted Striker]

The Killers did a brilliant thing at the O2 last night. Imagine the buzz!

It's right absolute Peak-#Lad, but as an aside, what sort of dickhead society are we raising here when people put captions describing the 'payoff' just in case there's any risk of discovering the reveal in the 10 seconds it takes for it to appear?

 

[kabbes]

Do you prefer the (fairly obvious tbh) adjustment that would be more similar to hawk-eye, with a 'umpires call' zone?

That delineates VAR from being absolute 'refereeing by robot' to 'preventing egregious bad calls'. I think Ref's now prefer the current interpretation tho, as it removes from them the risk of making (and being the face of) a bad call.

We should not be introducing more "discretion" into football. Either you're offside or you're not. It's easy. It's literally the one rule that's ok.

It doesn’t need to be discretion. You could make it so that if there is any overlap at all between players, it’s not offside, for example.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

I'm always surprised at how overtly physical the game has become, and how you can put two hands on someone's back to shove them over, while they have the ball and are attacking, and not get sent off. I'm sure all the pushing and shirt-pulling and arm-holding used to receive much harsher punishments back in the day.

 

[two sheds]

It doesn’t need to be discretion. You could make it so that if there is any overlap at all between players, it’s not offside, for example.

That's not going to stop ruling out exciting goals scored in the run of play because someone’s foot was 2mm in front of someone else’s nose, though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It doesn’t need to be discretion. You could make it so that if there is any overlap at all between players, it’s not offside, for example.

That just moves the line of contention, though. You can still be on/offside by a toe.

I think the problem here is one of resolution. What is the resolution of human perception compared to that of VAR? tbf the linesperson last night flagged offside. It was, just. They saw a body peeking out where it shouldn't be and it was a good spot. But more generally, there is no such thing as 'level' when VAR gets involved, so the rule still mentions 'level' as a concept but this is made for human perception-level resolution and doesn't make sense at VAR-level resolution.

 

[WouldBe]

That's not going to stop ruling out exciting goals scored in the run of play because someone’s foot was 2mm in front of someone else’s nose, though.

Just pixelate the picture when checking for offside.

 

[Wilf]

We should not be introducing more "discretion" into football. Either you're offside or you're not. It's easy. It's literally the one rule that's ok.

I agree, though I wonder if there's scope for 'thicker lines' to avoid being off by a toenail situations,?

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

VAR for offside works relatively well compared to the subjective decisions like handball and fouls. But, VAR only gets involved for goals (or in the build up to a penalty incident) so assistant refs shouldn't ever be thinking about relying on it - always make the decision as if there's no such thing as VAR.

For the decision itself, the tech is very accurate but still reliant on identifying the exact millisecond the ball is passed; I'd be in favour of something like a 15cm "buffer", where umpire's call comes into play (to borrow a phrase from cricket). There would still be the odd one that comes in at 15.1 or 14.9cm and that makes all the difference, but by then you're into the realms of clearly on or offside.

 

[Wilf]

Okay, come down from last night: England already looking a bit leggy and have a day less to prepare. Kane's a mystery, on 3 and joint top for the golden boot, but looks awful and contributes little. I think Watkins won the right to start after last night with Kane as super-sub. Not a cat in hell's chance Southgate will do that. Bellingham becomes less and less effective each game. He's very mature in most respects but I've got a vague suspicion there's a short fuse there as well. Mainoo is fantastic but seems to fade in games. Luke Shaw needs to start but is already lacking fitness. He's quite risk averse but might have a bit more space to overlap down the left. Tactics? Shape? Fuck knows, I don't know owt about that kind of thing. Kane's probably going to get a hat trick.

 

[skyscraper101]

Whatever VAR tech they're using though, it seems to be a hundred times superior, in both speed and on screen graphics, to these lines and drawn-out decision making they have in the premier league.

If they could now just fix the ridiculous hand ball/penalty decisions and revert back to the days of 'clear intent' to determine a foul, I think we can all agree nobody wants to see defenders having to clasp their hands behind their backs out of fear of having a ball whacked into an arm.

 

[ska invita]

Reflecting on the game and the tournament in general.....England dominated possession and Netherlands sat back or where pushed back for around two thirds of the game. That is pretty incredible in itself in a semi final against netherlands. Okay the passing it around at the back gets tedious, but twenty years ago that's what Brasil would do to England while our strategy was to run around like headless chickens and we looked like amateurs. We do look like a team playing modern football, whereas my memory of england, back in the days when national teams had styles, was we were behind the curve.

The squad is young, half haven't been to a major tournament before supposedly. They are still gelling, and perhaps we've seen that gelling in real time across the tournament. Future looks bright.

....one less day to prepare than Spain.... Its shit, but we did get the easy side of the draw so cant grumble about that.

 

[Ted Striker]

Okay, come down from last night: England already looking a bit leggy and have a day less to prepare. Kane's a mystery, on 3 and joint top for the golden boot, but looks awful and contributes little. I think Watkins won the right to start after last night with Kane as super-sub. Not a cat in hell's chance Southgate will do that. Bellingham becomes less and less effective each game. He's very mature in most respects but I've got a vague suspicion there's a short fuse there as well. Mainoo is fantastic but seems to fade in games. Luke Shaw needs to start but is already lacking fitness. He's quite risk averse but might have a bit more space to overlap down the left. Tactics? Shape? Fuck knows, I don't know owt about that kind of thing. Kane's probably going to get a hat trick.

I think Kane works absolutely perfectly - the best in the business, even - in his role a "trudgey starter, that you can never write off, and the oppo will commit and organise to nullify", that tee's up the bench-upstart-full-of-beans-and-ready-to-prove-a-point ready run rings around the tired defenders

 

[ska invita]

I think Kane works absolutely perfectly - the best in the business, even - in his role a "trudgey starter, that you can never write off, and the oppo will commit and organise to nullify", that tee's up the bench-upstart-full-of-beans-and-ready-to-prove-a-point ready run rings around the tired defenders

just means you miss him as a penalty taker, but yeah other than that you're right

 

[Wilf]

I think Kane works absolutely perfectly - the best in the business, even - in his role a "trudgey starter, that you can never write off, and the oppo will commit and organise to nullify", that tee's up the bench-upstart-full-of-beans-and-ready-to-prove-a-point ready run rings around the tired defenders

Yeah, it's like a boxer getting battered for 11 rounds and then the corner come up with a new plan: 'start hitting him back!'

 

[strung out]

Whatever VAR tech they're using though, it seems to be a hundred times superior, in both speed and on screen graphics, to these lines and drawn-out decision making they have in the premier league.

I think it’s the difference between drawing lines on a screen and the semi automated offside technology they’re using here, which has a chip in the ball coupled with limb tracking.

Apparently semi automated offsides are coming to the premier league next season.

 

[skyscraper101]

I think it’s the difference between drawing lines on a screen and the semi automated offside technology they’re using here, which has a chip in the ball coupled with limb tracking.

Apparently semi automated offsides are coming to the premier league next season.

That can only be a good thing. These 5 minute decision making processes are a farce and take all the buzz out celebrating goals.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Okay, come down from last night: England already looking a bit leggy and have a day less to prepare. Kane's a mystery, on 3 and joint top for the golden boot, but looks awful and contributes little. I think Watkins won the right to start after last night with Kane as super-sub. Not a cat in hell's chance Southgate will do that. Bellingham becomes less and less effective each game. He's very mature in most respects but I've got a vague suspicion there's a short fuse there as well. Mainoo is fantastic but seems to fade in games. Luke Shaw needs to start but is already lacking fitness. He's quite risk averse but might have a bit more space to overlap down the left. Tactics? Shape? Fuck knows, I don't know owt about that kind of thing. Kane's probably going to get a hat trick.

This is where the five subs plays into England's hands imo. Foden was amazing first half yesterday. He faded second half, partly because he wasn't getting the space. But there's no reason with the five subs why you can't plan from the start to take Foden and Mainoo (and Kane for that matter) off after 70 minutes.

I don't like the five subs rule, but given that it's there, there are surely smart ways to use it, and England seem to me to be the perfect squad to take advantage of it.

 

[Steel Icarus]

This is where the five subs plays into England's hands imo. Foden was amazing first half yesterday. He faded second half, partly because he wasn't getting the space. But there's no reason with the five subs why you can't plan from the start to take Foden and Mainoo (and Kane for that matter) off after 70 minutes.

I don't like the five subs rule, but given that it's there, there are surely smart ways to use it, and England seem to me to be the perfect squad to take advantage of it.

Yeah, our strength in depth is a huge, erm, strength. Even the golden gen of 2004 had bugger all on the bench when Rooney bust his foot against Portugal as we had to replace him with Darius Vassell, fgs.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

tbh that's why I don't like it so much. It gives teams with deeper resources a big advantage over smaller teams. But it definitely is a plus with this England squad.

*Spain have some useful players on the bench, too, of course.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Okay, come down from last night: England already looking a bit leggy and have a day less to prepare.

Yeah, just as the winning goal came about, I'd just started writing "this will be three 120 min games in a row". As it is, it's only the two, but that's still going to take its toll on a team where the starting XI has largely played 90-120m each game, and as you say, has a day less to recuperate.

I think Watkins won the right to start after last night with Kane as super-sub. Not a cat in hell's chance Southgate will do that.

Particularly given his comments after the match, which I can't remember the precise wording of but were along the lines of "yeah, we knew Watkins would have an impact coming off the bench late and running at tired defenders".

Tbf, at a number of points yesterday it did feel like we were doing a better job of pulling their team over a larger area of the pitch, as well as at least some running off the ball. How much that is just due to previous teams being more content with staying 'compact' than the Netherlands I'm not sure, but it could help with the whole "tire 'em out" theory.

 

[Idaho]

I'm always surprised at how overtly physical the game has become, and how you can put two hands on someone's back to shove them over, while they have the ball and are attacking, and not get sent off. I'm sure all the pushing and shirt-pulling and arm-holding used to receive much harsher punishments back in the day.

It's always been physical. Probably more so in the past. The vastly improved quality and range of camera angles means you see it all in detail. In the 1980s you'd only have a few cameras capturing mediocre quality footage from a distance. And you'd be watching it on a crappy little TV.

 

[scalyboy]

I'm always surprised at how overtly physical the game has become, and how you can put two hands on someone's back to shove them over, while they have the ball and are attacking, and not get sent off. I'm sure all the pushing and shirt-pulling and arm-holding used to receive much harsher punishments back in the day.

Pshaw, such man-handling is mere handbaggery when compared with the no-holds-barred physicality of, say, Leeds playing Man Utd in the 1970s. By Christ, some of the GBH allowed back then was like a reenactment of the Battles of Towton or Killiekrankie. Limbs torn from living men and lying uselessly twitching amid the mud of the six-yard box,