ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
Of your initial claim of racist cunts or subsequent claim of violent cunts? no one is disputing the violent cunts
How inaccurate would you say your claim was, a bit? a lot? not wildly obviously!
England fans: the racism and the violence
- Thread starter editor
- Start date
How inaccurate would you say your claim was, a bit? a lot? not wildly obviously!
editor
hiraethified
This is exactly what I meant at the start of this thread. The downplaying, the denial, the 'oh look we're not as bad as [insert other country],' while failing to acknowledge that there's plenty of countries that take part in international competitions without the booing, the fighting and all the racist social media stuff.
But if some Bulgarian fans once made a Nazi salute somewhere then I guess there's absolutely no reason to criticise England fans at all then.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
editor
hiraethified
I'm not 'protective' at all. I stopped supporting them years ago, but when I hear some know-nothing shouting his mouth off on a topic he knows absolutely fuck all about, I'm happy to correct them. Shamefully, you haven't got the dignity to even admit to your mistake.
FYI: I used to openly sell a well-known anti racist fanzine on the Cardiff terraces for several years. Never got into any bother at all. So what is this historic racist problem you're now shifting the discussion on to?
andysays
Love and solidarity
Out of interest and for the clarification of someone who hasn't watched any of the games, do any of the other nations who took part in Euro 2020 have a similar proportion of Black players to the England team?
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
France, I would say.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I’ll agree with most of this (esp as you know ccfc a lot better than I do), but would you have made an anti racist zine for the terraces if there was no/very little problem at all?
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
Southgate showed us a new England. But the old one hasn’t gone away | David Olusoga
The team gave us an insight into a modern nation. The racial abuse they received shows it won’t be an easy transition, says historian and broadcaster David Olusoga
Good article by David Olusoga.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Italy were, of course, one of the ones with zero black players. Only a tiny number have ever played for the national squad and they did not get great receptions from many of the fans.
andysays
Love and solidarity
And have they been subjected to similar levels of racism from some of their team's fans?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
This is exactly what I meant at the start of this thread. The downplaying, the denial, the 'oh look we're not as bad as [insert other country],' while failing to acknowledge that there's plenty of countries that take part in international competitions without the booing, the fighting and all the racist social media stuff.
But if some Bulgarian fans once made a Nazi salute once then I guess there's absolutely no reason to criticise England fans at all then.
Once again: There is no downplaying. The fact that we are now onto a second day of national news leading on this and the domination of the issue across social media should make that clear.
But your attempt to locate this as a specifically English problem - hey, so what if some Bulgarian fans made nazi salutes and monkey noise at England players - is risible. All of the evidence suggests that the form of racism being discussed here is a problem on the rise across Europe.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, France, Belgium, Portugal, and the Netherlands i.e. the bigger former colonial powers.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Italians would turn up at the training session to sing 'no such thing as a black Italian' to Balotelli.
editor
hiraethified
The idea for the comic came from me being shocked at hearing three racist guys for the first time. It wasn't something I was used to hearing at all. but I didn't know how to confront them.
I also wanted to redress the common attitude of the time that all football fans were racist thugs, so I launched the magazine (described by 4-4-2 Mag as "painfully right on") and it went on to sell to a quarter of the entire crowd.
If there had been a big problem with racism, it's fair to say those people would have made themselves known to me very quickly indeed.
You can read the story here Vintage Cardiff City ‘Bluebird Jones’ comics to be exhibited at Cardiff bar
editor
hiraethified
Very good:Southgate showed us a new England. But the old one hasn’t gone away | David Olusoga
The team gave us an insight into a modern nation. The racial abuse they received shows it won’t be an easy transition, says historian and broadcaster David Olusogawww.theguardian.com
Good article by David Olusoga.
I think Southgate has been a magnificent manager, btw.
Athos
Well-Known Member
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
I did a quick search on 'French football racism' and plenty of stuff comes up. I can't pretend to know if it's a greater or lesser problem than it is here - I would suspect so.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Obviously just an isolated incident.
editor
hiraethified
Never, ever, ever made any kind of claim or suggestion that it was a "specifically English problem" so you can haul that Strawman back to wherever you found it.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Yup a total one off. Bar these ones:
This from those who RUN the game there:
Serie A uses monkeys in anti-racism posters
Serie A is criticised for a "misguided" anti-racism campaign using posters of monkeys, with anti-discriminatory body Fare calling it "a sick joke".
www.bbc.com
Here’s some monkey chanting:
When the Monkey Chants Are for You: A Soccer Star’s View of Racist Abuse (Published 2019)
As black players in Europe endure racist incidents with increasing regularity, striker Romelu Lukaku speaks out about what he has endured: “It’s crazy.”
And another;
‘Proud of my skin colour’: Koulibaly slams monkey chants during Napoli defeat
Carlo Ancelotti said the referee repeatedly ignored Napoli’s request to stop the game after Kalidou Koulibaly was reportedly subjected to monkey chants throughout their 1-0 defeat to Internazionale on Boxing Day
All one offs
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Your exact words were “England has got a far, far bigger problem than most”. I’m suggesting you’re wrong. You’ve still not supplied a shred of evidence to back it up
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Won't somebody please think of the poor innocent estate agents and their hacked accounts?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
littlebabyjesus "in summary", you're not doing a fucking class, you made claims you can't back up ffs, as is you MO on loads of threads, more and more people can see it
editor
hiraethified
So you think teams like Wales, Sweden, Finland, Scotland, Denmark etc all have the same sort of problems with racism as England, yes?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
So, just to clear, what you were claiming wasn’t that England has a “much much bigger problem than most” but that it has a problem bigger than Finland?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Not specifically to do with the football, but as a 16 year expat Sais resident in Wales, I see a very fundamental difference in the styles of English nationalism - which utterly manifests around football - and Welsh nationalism (which, TBF, also does to a lesser extent).
There have been a few times over the last few months - around the Euros, and other things - where the issue of Welsh national identity has come up amongst groups of people I have been around. What the Welsh - and for all I know, every other country in the world apart from a certain section of English people - seem to manage to do is to cherish a fiery, assertive nationalism, without it turning into something nasty and vindictive, something I've always felt deeply uncomfortable about around the English variety.
Case in point. There was a musician in the neighbouring bar, and at the end of the set, he moved on to Welsh nationalist songs. I'd not encountered Dafydd Iwan before, and the guy sang "Yma O Hyd", and one of my (Welsh) friends was translating it for me, to the mild discomfort of some of my other Welsh friends (note for non-Welsh speakers: it's a pretty blatant gesture of defiance and a call to arms for the Welsh against the English). I think they were more worried about how I'd take it than their feelngs. The point of this is that, defiant and aggressive though it may be, Welsh nationalism (for one) is not about hate, supremacy, and destroying anything in its path.
And welcoming. I am blatantly English, and I have only ever had the mildest anti-English prejudice shown against me in all the time I have been here. Sure, Wales does have racism - but it doesn't have that same pointed sense of entitlement that English racism seems to bring with it.
There have been a few times over the last few months - around the Euros, and other things - where the issue of Welsh national identity has come up amongst groups of people I have been around. What the Welsh - and for all I know, every other country in the world apart from a certain section of English people - seem to manage to do is to cherish a fiery, assertive nationalism, without it turning into something nasty and vindictive, something I've always felt deeply uncomfortable about around the English variety.
Case in point. There was a musician in the neighbouring bar, and at the end of the set, he moved on to Welsh nationalist songs. I'd not encountered Dafydd Iwan before, and the guy sang "Yma O Hyd", and one of my (Welsh) friends was translating it for me, to the mild discomfort of some of my other Welsh friends (note for non-Welsh speakers: it's a pretty blatant gesture of defiance and a call to arms for the Welsh against the English). I think they were more worried about how I'd take it than their feelngs. The point of this is that, defiant and aggressive though it may be, Welsh nationalism (for one) is not about hate, supremacy, and destroying anything in its path.
And welcoming. I am blatantly English, and I have only ever had the mildest anti-English prejudice shown against me in all the time I have been here. Sure, Wales does have racism - but it doesn't have that same pointed sense of entitlement that English racism seems to bring with it.
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
Isn't this brilliant:
Marcus Rashford: Hundreds gather at mural for anti-racism demo
England star Marcus Rashford says an anti-racism demonstration at a mural of him left him "lost for words".
www.bbc.co.uk
editor
hiraethified
Instead of making up quotes, why not try answering the question I asked?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
New Statesman article indicating that 70% plus of the racist posting on social media is from outside of the UK. Yet more evidence that this is a global problem, and that racists on football social media are racists in the real world too..
“Brighton striker Neal Maupay received digital death threats after scoring against Arsenal in June 2020. The person who sent them was given a nine-month probation order this month. The 19-year-old perpetrator wasn’t from Sunderland or Somerset, but Singapore. “It is, from a perpetrator perspective,” says Bhandari, “a global pandemic.”
www.newstatesman.com
“Brighton striker Neal Maupay received digital death threats after scoring against Arsenal in June 2020. The person who sent them was given a nine-month probation order this month. The 19-year-old perpetrator wasn’t from Sunderland or Somerset, but Singapore. “It is, from a perpetrator perspective,” says Bhandari, “a global pandemic.”
Who is behind the online abuse of black England players and how can we stop it?
If we want to stop racism, we don’t need to stop or change social media – we need to stop or change people.
www.newstatesman.com
