England fans: the racism and the violence

[Ax^]

so is Andrew Laurence going to be the next anti woke campaigner

cancelled for saying the white player scored, us nasty lefty's with our agenda

 

[Ax^]

On the former point, that this is seemingly the fact of the matter has not stopped middle class Guardian wankers and others taking the chance to spew out their festering hate towards the great unwashed has it? Or twitter, replete with language portraying ordinary people having a good time as little more than savages. It's glaring and yet passes unchallenged again and again.

On the latter point I'd love to see some proper research on the demographics. My hunch is that it isn't builders or plumbers from deindustrialised places posting this stuff. If anyone is aware of any serious research or investigative work please point me in its direction.

do not happen to read spiked.com by any chance?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

do not happen to read spiked.com by any chance?

Nope. Take it you've got no problems in the tone and language and the underlying whiff of class hatred? Or you do but because Spiked say it that invalidates it in your view?

 

[Diamond]

On the former point, that this is seemingly the fact of the matter has not stopped middle class Guardian wankers and others taking the chance to spew out their festering hate towards the great unwashed has it? Or twitter, replete with language portraying ordinary people having a good time as little more than savages. It's glaring and yet passes unchallenged again and again.

On the latter point I'd love to see some proper research on the demographics. My hunch is that it isn't builders or plumbers from deindustrialised places posting this stuff. If anyone is aware of any serious research or investigative work please point me in its direction.

I think there is a strong dose of misandry in all of this, alongside the undoubted class hatred. You only have to see some of the articles that treat "aggression" as some kind of egregious offence - and at a bloody football match too!

So many articles these days are about hurt feelings - it's risible nonsense, all of it.

No doubt there were incidents of people behaving badly, mainly in jumping queues at the stadium and barging past people just trying to do their job. Those who gave the bargers a going over once inside did not give a fantastic account of themselves either (although their anger and frustration is logical and understandable - some of these people will have paid a small fortune for their tickets).

But there seems to be this narrative gaining currency that Wembley on Sunday night was some kind of degenerate white-male-racist-working class nightmare. And that's simply not accurate.

 

[Espresso]

The artist has repaired the Marcus Rashford mural in Withington .

I wonder what the supremely useless arse who defaced it thinks of his handiwork now.

 

[belboid]

so is Andrew Laurence going to be the next anti woke campaigner

cancelled for saying the white player scored, us nasty lefty's with our agenda

Interesting to see how Patel will react. Under the ‘Free Speech’ bill he’d be able to sue if any of those venues were student unions.

 

[existentialist]

Interesting to see how Patel will react. Under the ‘Free Speech’ bill he’d be able to sue if any of those venues were student unions.

That would be wonderful. He gets cancelled, he sues, the gig goes on.

The opportunities for silent, passive protest would be wonderful! Not least by simply not attending. You can't force people to attend a comedy show.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think there is a strong dose of misandry in all of this, alongside the undoubted class hatred. You only have to see some of the articles that treat "aggression" as some kind of egregious offence - and at a bloody football match too!

I can't agree with this point. Aggression at a football match is pathetic, and fucking shit and scary for those on the receiving end. It's about time people stopped trying to downplay it.

 

[Ax^]

Nope. Take it you've got no problems in the tone and language and the underlying whiff of class hatred? Or you do but because Spiked say it that invalidates it in your view?

Brendan can go stickhis head up his own arse, the problem is with the racist not with the working class
and giving them a cause to attempt to hide behind bull shit its not part of being working class to be racist because of football

 

[Diamond]

I can't agree with this point. Aggression at a football match is pathetic, and fucking shit and scary for those on the receiving end. It's about time people stopped trying to downplay it.

I'm not sure how you can play a football match without aggression.

Or even why that would be a good thing.

Aggression is not automatically bad is the point, I suppose. And pretending that it is in the way that is being done re: Wembley does shade into misandry for me.

It's similar to complaints about hysterical women.

 

[Ax^]

quite sure rugby league is quite an aggressive sport

but oddly the fans can sit together

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not sure how you can play a football match without aggression.

Or even why that would be a good thing.

Aggression is not automatically bad is the point, I suppose. And pretending that it is in the way that is being done re: Wembley does shade into misandry for me.

It's similar to complaints about hysterical women.

I'm obviously not talking about playing. I'm talking about spectating.

If you were talking about playing rather than spectating, then you really weren't saying anything at all, were you?

 

[Lord Camomile]

I'm not sure how you can play a football match without aggression.

Or even why that would be a good thing.

Aggression is not automatically bad is the point, I suppose. And pretending that it is in the way that is being done re: Wembley does shade into misandry for me.

It's similar to complaints about hysterical women.

Well, obviously it depends what definition of "aggression" we're working to. Need to be clear on what exactly we're talking about before we start on whether it's a good or bad thing.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Brendan can go stickhis head up his own arse, the problem is with the racist not with the working class
and giving them a cause to attempt to hide behind bull shit its not part of being working class to be racist because of football

Yes Ax, the problem is with the racists and not the working class. That’s exactly the point I was making. And I’ll be continuing to highlight baseless middle class attempts to conflate the two…

 

[The39thStep]

I think there is a strong dose of misandry in all of this, alongside the undoubted class hatred. You only have to see some of the articles that treat "aggression" as some kind of egregious offence - and at a bloody football match too!

So many articles these days are about hurt feelings - it's risible nonsense, all of it.

No doubt there were incidents of people behaving badly, mainly in jumping queues at the stadium and barging past people just trying to do their job. Those who gave the bargers a going over once inside did not give a fantastic account of themselves either (although their anger and frustration is logical and understandable - some of these people will have paid a small fortune for their tickets).

But there seems to be this narrative gaining currency that Wembley on Sunday night was some kind of degenerate white-male-racist-working class nightmare. And that's simply not accurate.

I agree that some of the narrative is appaulling , big assumption that everyone there by definition was racist , sexist , homophobic and voted for Brexit sort of narrative. However I wouldnt understate some of the public order issues that have emerged . There's been some talk about scores of people succesfully tailgating through the electronic turnstiles at the semi final as well . The numbers quoted by Wembley ie a hundred or so getting in for the final may well be somewhat of an understatement. Apparantly England players familes had to ask fans to get out of their seats , most did and moved to other seats as the stadium was under capacity. Mancini's son was quoted in The Times with a similar story. I'm not condoning the recation of those who handed out some beatings but it must have been a scary situation. Saw one quote that up to 250k may have been around Wembley and approx 400 police .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well, obviously it depends what definition of "aggression" we're working to. Need to be clear on what exactly we're talking about before we start on whether it's a good or bad thing.

You can and need to be aggressive at certain points playing in a football match. I don't think that is controversial. If Diamond is only referring to that, then the point is a rather silly one given that this thread is about the behaviour of the people attending the match, not the players.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'm obviously not talking about playing. I'm talking about spectating.

If you were talking about playing rather than spectating, then you really weren't saying anything at all, were you?

Is it like that watching football now? I don’t go to England games and never have, so maybe that’s different. But watching domestic football my experience is that, in comparison to when I was a kid, football crowds have changed beyond all recognition. For example, going away once was a total adrenaline rush as the hate inside and outside the ground was palpable. Now, it’s more craft beers and banter with the home fans. I prefer the old days but can see why others wouldn’t

 

[Lord Camomile]

You can and need to be aggressive at certain points playing in a football match. I don't think that is controversial. If Diamond is only referring to that, then the point is a rather silly one given that this thread is about the behaviour of the people attending the match, not the players.

Aye, but even then, what's "aggressive"?

Holding your ground when someone tries to disposes you? Getting in the face of an opposition player in possession? Not caring if you hurt someone? Actively trying to hurt someone?

All of those could be referred to as "aggression", but personally I wouldn't agree with a statement that suggested all of those were legitimate or necessary parts of a football match.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is it like that watching football now? I don’t go to England games and never have, so maybe that’s different. But watching domestic football my experience is that, in comparison to when I was a kid, football crowds have changed beyond all recognition. For example, going away once was a total adrenaline rush as the hate inside and outside the ground was palpable. Now, it’s more craft beers and banter with the home fans. I prefer the old days but can see why others wouldn’t

I haven't been for about five years now, but the last time I was going semi-regularly was to Leyton Orient. Away fans are encouraged to join the club bar at Orient - 3 quid to join then 3 quid a pint of, yes, craft beer, or it was five years ago. Never saw anything untoward at Orient.

Me, that's how I like it.

 

[Lord Camomile]

For example, going away once was a total adrenaline rush as the hate inside and outside the ground was palpable.

Aye, appreciate to a certain extent it's just different tastes/interests, but that just sounds really weird to me. I don't understand what's enjoyable about hating someone, or indeed why you would hate someone over what is fundamentally just a game with various made up rules.

 

[Diamond]

You can and need to be aggressive at certain points playing in a football match. I don't think that is controversial. If Diamond is only referring to that, then the point is a rather silly one given that this thread is about the behaviour of the people attending the match, not the players.

I don't know - I go to the the footy most weeks when the season is on and the process of watching is a naturally aggressive thing - you end up shouting stuff at the ref, opposition players etc - do you think that should go to?

I can see where you're coming from re: people getting shirty, fisticuffs and whatnot but that's pretty extreme. A football match is a naturally aggressive environment. That doesn't mean that there is automatically a problem with the aggression

 

[editor]

You can and need to be aggressive at certain points playing in a football match. I don't think that is controversial. If Diamond is only referring to that, then the point is a rather silly one given that this thread is about the behaviour of the people attending the match, not the players.

So would you prefer it if football crowds were more Wimbledon like?
When was the last time you went to a football game, by the way?

 

[ddraig]

You said "Cardiff has some of the worst racist cunt fans in the country"
And now you're changing it to "long history of violence"???

Any evidence for your first assertion?

So are you going to dodge this littlebabyjesus ? Seeing as you've been answering other posts since

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Aye, appreciate to a certain extent it's just different tastes/interests, but that just sounds really weird to me. I don't understand what's enjoyable about hating someone, or indeed why you would hate someone over what is fundamentally just a game with various made up rules.

I've never got the hatred aspect of sporting rivalries. When I was much younger, I sort of tried to join in with it, weakly, kind of. Then I realised that it was ok not to get it, and I was much happier.

 

[The39thStep]

Interesting thread on Facebook moderation for the final

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Sorry which posters are using this as an excuse?

A couple of posters were saying how it's mainly malicious foreign actors. I'm sure there's some truth to that but it's very similar to the 'weren't me, guv my account was hacked' line of defence.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

A couple of posters were saying how it's mainly malicious foreign actors. I'm sure there's some truth to that but it's very similar to the 'weren't me, guv my account was hacked' line of defence.

I think it was Gareth Southgate who said at his press conference that the majority were sent from foreign accounts.

It’s also really not similar in any way to those who did send tweets and then pretend that their account was temporarily hacked is it? One is seeking to identify where this is coming from and putting a stop to it, the other is bullshit

 

[The39thStep]

A couple of posters were saying how it's mainly malicious foreign actors. I'm sure there's some truth to that but it's very similar to the 'weren't me, guv my account was hacked' line of defence.

In what way Carrot?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

In what way Carrot?

It's essentially the same argument isn't it?

It's not really that bad it's mainly Russian trolls hacking lots of twitter accounts.

Just seems like yet more brushing it under the carpet and excuse making to me.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I think it was Gareth Southgate who said at his press conference that the majority were sent from foreign accounts.

It’s also really not similar in any way to those who did send tweets and then pretend that their account was temporarily hacked is it? One is seeking to identify where this is coming from and putting a stop to it, the other is bullshit

It jusy seems like an attempt to downplay it to me. I'm sure some posts do come from malicious actors but doing this merry dance of 'oh it's not that bad' everytime cunts act like cunts at or around a football match is unhelpful.