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England vs Scotland 18.6.21

T & P said:
Yes and no. Even the best sides had off-games at their greatest era. And whereas negative press reviews after a bad game are to be expected by any player, being booed at home by your own fans for a result that still leaves you in an excellent position to qualify seems OTT and detrimental to England’s chances IMO.
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Honestly, under Southgate, I don't think we have much chance to begin with, notwithstanding that the players are good enough to win it.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I don't get why Sterling is always the one singled out. It happened at the World Cup as well. He wasn't scoring but he was one of the team's brightest sparks right through the WC and he was slated for it at first cos he didn't score. I thought he did ok tonight. He was at least trying things.
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Often racists and/or bitter Liverpool fans. Plenty on this thread.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I don't get why Sterling is always the one singled out. It happened at the World Cup as well. He wasn't scoring but he was one of the team's brightest sparks right through the WC and he was slated for it at first cos he didn't score. I thought he did ok tonight. He was at least trying things.
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Yeah, he wasn't the issue, tonight.
 
The Octagon said:
The continued omission of Sancho is the biggest issue I think, he's already world class and consistently the best player for a Dortmund team that includes a few other decent prospects last I checked.

We're crying out for Grealish / Foden / Sancho behind the striker.
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Very puzzling why Sancho wasn't put on imo, there was a lot of space on the right flank which was never exploited in the second half and he can cut in. On the scots side delighted that Gilmour had such a good game
 
I don't follow football except England at the International tournys so my opinion is probably bunk but I felt England seemed to be too afraid of losing to try and win in the second half, and don't seem very clinical in front of goal.
 
Athos said:
Scotland played well tonight, but, with no disrespect to them, man-for-man they ought to blown away be England in every position. The fact that all our lot played very poorly compared to how they do for their clubs (both individually and collectively) shows Southgate's limitations as a manager - he can't motivate, and sets up negatively (in terms of formation and tactics). I mean two holding midfielders; the full backs 20 yards behind where they'd be for their clubs; Kane playing so deep; replacing one of the few creatie players in Foden; not taking a chance on the creativity of, say, Sancho...
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Robertson, Tierney and Gilmour? You sure? 🤔
 
The39thStep said:
Very puzzling why Sancho wasn't put on imo, there was a lot of space on the right flank which was never exploited in the second half and he can cut in. On the scots side delighted that Gilmour had such a good game
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A case of bias against non-English-club players, perhaps? Dortmund are easily the equivalent of one of England's smirk top-six superclubs. If he'd starred for one of them instead, I suspect he'd play more.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
A case of bias against non-English-club players, perhaps? Dortmund are easily the equivalent of one of England's smirk top-six superclubs. If he'd starred for one of them instead, I suspect he'd play more.
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He'll be at Man Utd next season, I'd have him at Chelsea but we are full on that right hand side at the moment.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
A case of bias against non-English-club players, perhaps? Dortmund are easily the equivalent of one of England's smirk top-six superclubs. If he'd starred for one of them instead, I suspect he'd play more.
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Bellingham got on in the last match after playing even fewer games for Dortmund than Sancho. I think the simple fact is that England have got a lot of talent across the front three and Southgate doesn't want to let down players who got England to a World Cup semi final, however flukey that was. Southgate may be too loyal sometimes, but it paid off with Sterling in the last match when plenty would have dropped him.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Within a gnat's whisker of making the final. Best WC since 1990. It was more than anyone had hoped for, let's not forget that.

Dunno. it's just all a bit miserable. More fun when you don't expect your team to win everything.
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Misery, pessimism and outrage is the raison d'etre of the modern England fan, especially on this forum.

We should be more like Scotland fans, fucking ecstatic and they haven't even scored a goal in a major tournament this millennium.
 
1927 said:
A Ramsey, Keiffer Moore and a Bale of your own and you might get somewhere. On his showing so far chart knows how much Keiffer is worth compared to Kane.
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Exactly. Who has been our top star over recent years, Darren Fletcher.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Within a gnat's whisker of making the final. Best WC since 1990. It was more than anyone had hoped for, let's not forget that.

Dunno. it's just all a bit miserable. More fun when you don't expect your team to win everything.
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I don't expect England to win anything. But I do know that group of players is capable of performing much better, especially against average sides like Croatia and poor ones like Scotland.
 
Athos said:
I don't expect England to win anything. But I do know that group of players is capable of performing much better, especially against average sides like Croatia and poor ones like Scotland.
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… said every England fan from 1968 onwards in the face of all the accumulating evidence.

Maybe shorn of their non-English club colleagues, the English players really are exactly what tournament after tournament suggests they are? Maybe there is no special, true essence of the England team and they just are all their performances? A pretty effective but not very creative side, good at defending but lacking the real movement and control up front to consistently break teams down at the very top level?
 
kabbes said:
… said every England fan from 1968 onwards in the face of all the accumulating evidence.

Maybe shorn of their non-English club colleagues, the English players really are exactly what tournament after tournament suggests they are? Maybe there is no special, true essence of the England team and they just are all their performances? A pretty effective but not very creative side, good at defending but lacking the real movement and control up front to consistently break teams down at the very top level?
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I'm talking about this group of players, not previous ones. And of course there's no "essence."

You can't tell me there's not the ability to be creative amongst them, what with Foden, Mount, Sancho, Sterling, Grealish, etc. It's the way he has them play: overly defensive formation, wrong personnel (two defensive midfielders at home against Scotland!), tactics (no press out of possession, no urgency in attack, full backs hanging back, nobody committing to beating his man), and poor man management (little desire or energy). That all stems from his instinct not to lose, which lack of ambition stifles the players' best qualities - under Southgate England is less than the sum of its parts! Hardly surprising when you look at his CV; he's no real experience or success - completely out of his depth, but an FA 'company man.'

You're right about one thing, though: there's little movement or control up front. But that's mainly because Kane isn't there most of the time - he's drifted too deep!
 
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Putting my undying 25 year devotion to him aside :D Southgate has a mammoth task ahead of him in the long term. He's trying to undo a decade of terrible England psychology, with "star players" having the weight of the country on their shoulders and the rest of the squad overlooked. And you can tell he really cares about the wellbeing of his players. You could see it in Mings' pm interview. He was all about the accountability of the whole team, the intensity having to come from every player, not one talisman or lucky charm goal-scorer who wasn't on form. Yet whoever was asking the questions kept asking about Kane :rolleyes:
They're a young team. How many people on the pitch last night had been at anything as charged as that international Derby? Yeah maybe they choked a bit. It's all experience.
For me, I'm excited by this team, this new approach. I've got some pride in them again, after the Rooney (Owen, Beckham..) years, because a lot of the time they look like they're having fun. They're encouraged to do things they believe in and are backed by their manager. Southgate could put 10 full backs on for our next game and I'd have his back, fuck it, read his statement on taking the knee.

It's coming home (eventually).
 
Rebelda said:
Putting my undying 25 year devotion to him aside :D Southgate has a mammoth task ahead of him in the long term. He's trying to undo a decade of terrible England psychology, with "star players" having the weight of the country on their shoulders and the rest of the squad overlooked. And you can tell he really cares about the wellbeing of his players. You could see it in Mings' pm interview. He was all about the accountability of the whole team, the intensity having to come from every player, not one talisman or lucky charm goal-scorer who wasn't on form. Yet whoever was asking the questions kept asking about Kane :rolleyes:
They're a young team. How many people on the pitch last night had been at anything as charged as that international Derby? Yeah maybe they choked a bit. It's all experience.
For me, I'm excited by this team, this new approach. I've got some pride in them again, after the Rooney (Owen, Beckham..) years, because a lot of the time they look like they're having fun. They're encouraged to do things they believe in and are backed by their manager. Southgate could put 10 full backs on for our next game and I'd have his back, fuck it, read his statement on taking the knee.

It's coming home (eventually).
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I know you like him, and I accept it's not an easy job, but it's hard to say he's succeeding at bringing the best out of what he's got, isn't it?

And, with regard to Kane, I think it's fair to ask questions about why we played in such a way that the league's top goal scorer only touched the ball six times in the opposition area in two matches!

In terms of the profile of the game, many of those players had been in CL or Europa finals, not a home game in a group stage from which we'd already pretty much qualified, against a team 500/1 for the tournament!

And if you think they're playing freely, you've watched a different game from me - none of them were playing with the freedom they do with their clubs! His excessive caution hampered them.

I've no doubt 's a nice guy, with an admirable stance on taking the knee; my point is that his record and this team's performances don't suggest he's much good as a manager.

Hopefully they'll get shot of him after this tournament, and pay whatever it takes to get a really world class manager.
 
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Athos said:
And, with regard to Kane, I think it's fair to ask questions about why we played in such a way that the league's top goal scorer only touched the ball six times in the opposition area in two matches!
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Ive seen it many times - it happens a lot in Spurs matches. Kane is not Maradona. Hes a brilliant (goal hanger) finisher. Why what you describe happens in some games is not an easy thing to answer - its a bit of a conundrum - I don't know the exact reason, but have hunches. Its not necessarily the managers fault though.
My feeling is Kane does well when he gets the best service, such as if you have an ingenious player like Son alongside playing on form creating everything. Son is objectively a better player than Kane IMO.
When Kane isnt getting the service he tends to drop back those crucial few meters and maybe becomes useful as a playmaker, though usually looks frustrated.
Kane also is tired and battered after a gruelling season.
Stick Kane in a superstar, supereffective team playing on form and creating chances and he'll get your goal tally up.
Kane in a struggling side is not necessarily going to make the crucial difference.
Lewandowski was most recently voted best player in the world, yet Poland might not make it out of the group stages. Kane is not as good as Lewandowski either.

IMO this England squad just isnt that good - expectations must be lowered. Whether they can dig in in a scrappy game against a side better than them is yet to be seen - they may well do so in a game that opens up end to end.
 
Athos said:
I know you like him, and I accept it's not an easy job, but it's hard to say he's succeeding at bringing the best out of what he's got, isn't it?

And, with regard to Kane, I think it's fair to ask questions about why we played in such a way that the league's top goal scorer only touched the ball six times in the opposition area in two matches!

In terms of the profile of the game, many of those players had been in CL or Europa finals, not a home game in a group stage from which we'd already pretty much qualified, against a team 500/1 for the tournament!

And if you think they're playing freely, you've watched a different game from me - none of them were playing with the freedom they do with their clubs! His excessive caution hampered them.

I've no doubt 's a nice guy, with an admirable stance on taking the knee; my point is that his record and this team's performances don't suggest he's much good as a manager.

Hopefully they'll get shot of him after this tournament, and pay whatever it takes to get a really world class manager.
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I think he is, but maybe we're measuring success differently. He's bringing out healthier attitudes, fewer tantrums, better mental health. Better football will follow.

Course it's fine to ask that, but not of Kane as if he personally has failed his country (I don't mean you here, for clarity). It's twisted, and it doesn't work. We watched that travesty unfold.

Personally I disagree with you that you can compare the profiles of club games, no matter how huge, and international. It's a different beast. Not better or worse, it's not a value opinion, just different.

I thought I had made it pretty clear that I wasn't talking about last night's game but in broader terms. I'm talking about WC 2018 and onwards.

Fuck me one choked match. Yeah let's get a superstar ego in. No thanks. We shook off the penalties curse, made it out the group stages in a world cup, I think people are forgetting that this is an improvement for England :D
 
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