During the biggest crisis of capitalism of our generation, why is the UK anarcho-left not growing?

[cantsin]

Really? In that case the left is even more dead than I thought. Nothing personal, but this is hardly a hubbub of revolutionary activity is it?

do you really think the lack of a "hubbub of revolutionary activity" on a long standing "alternative lifestyle " interweb forum says anything much about the wider 'left'/ anarchism /anything much ?

 

[TruXta]

do you really think the lack of a "hubbub of revolutionary activity" on a long standing "alternative lifestyle " interweb forum says anything much about the wider 'left'/ anarchism /anything much ?

A bit yeah. Not least if "prominent anarcho-lefties" frequent these here parts.

 

[treelover]

As to the OP, why isn't the anarcho-left growing? Some reasons I think are:

Like Edie said, the wider left has been dying because of the loss of large workplaces and the casualisation of Labour
alongside this, unions have lost huge amounts of power, and lost lots of high profile struggles over the past 30 odd years. Thus even in small workplaces there is an individualisation of the workforce. This has combined with the complete acceptance of neo-liberalism by the Labour party, and the general idea that Labour represent the Left and therefore if even they are following these policies then those who oppose them must be extremists. The idea that we live in a post-ideological age and a classless society goes hand-in-hand with this.

Then you have the things Thatcher did in her aim to change the soul using economics - sell off of council housing, emphasis on the motor car as transportation, privatisation of utilities and more things I'm forgetting at the moment - all stuff which individualised things that had been colectively provided or consumed beforehand. As crap as left/right is for describing political ideologies, there is definitely something about the left thinking about communities and the right thinking about individuals, and the structures that have been destroyed in the last 30 years have been the communal ones, and they've been replaced with individualised structures instead.

Then there is all the infighting/secterianism on the far left, it's not attractive to people not involved, and it's exclusionary - it says "if you don't think exactly what I think, not only will I think you are wrong but I'll attack you for it, even though we agree on the bigger issues".
The fact that local demos are small and have mostly been focused on council cuts where very little has been won.
There's a definite problem of "what's the point?" which was concreted in many people's minds after the Iraq war demo.

The issue addressed by the "give up activism" piece about how activism separates itself from ordinary life, and in doing so excludes people, and of how we make stuff accessible and welcoming for people who haven't been involved in campaigning/demonstrations before.

those are some thoughts of mine, nothing well worked out though.

The TUC March last year saw hundred of thousands of people from every background, demographic, etc, peacefully but angrily march through London(I saw thousands of youngsters proudly waving various union flags):, it was exhilarating to be there, but then nothing, no follow up, no reaching out, i still think the unions have a place, can be a force for good. The next TUC march is on October 20th , the next one should be just as big, but they must have plans in place to build on that goodwill. its no use them worrying about actions form the idiots in the black bloc, that will be forgotten again in time, the stock images the media use now are of the colourful masses marching..

realise this post has nothing to do with AL but had to flag the october demo up..

 

[TruXta]

do you really think the lack of a "hubbub of revolutionary activity" on a long standing "alternative lifestyle " interweb forum says anything much about the wider 'left'/ anarchism /anything much ?

Another way to read this post is that lefties/anarchos shouldn't bother with this place as it's merely "a long standing alternative lifestye interweb forum". Which, you know, is something ayatollah might have argued. Don't bother with the druggies, the freaks, the musos or whatnot. If you're not in a union/bookshop/commune/squat/party then you've fuck all to do with the left or anarchism.

 

[TruXta]

the viewing figures for P/P don't seem to be stellar...

Yeah, ever since I stopped posting They were good enough to warrant a separate forum tho.

 

[treelover]

Where have you been since 2008, Truxta.. in a bunker on Planet Zog ? Seems to me. looking at the European political scene, that, after a 30 year collapse of the Left generally, and the Radical Left in particular, that if you shift your viewpoint just a tad from the UK, you'll find a gigantic resurgeance in all graduations of the Left in places where the world crisis is more advanced than here , eg, Greece, Spain, Italy,Portugal, France. You need to look at the international news a bit more I suggest .

The level of crisis in the UK, because of our relatively privileged position as a key component of World Finance Capital, is still way behind most of Europe, but give it time... the "austerity" cuts of the Coalition are just starting to bite -- the NHS will soon be in big time trouble, people under 25 will soon be homeless en-masse due to the Housing Benefit changes, and mass unemployment on a 1930's (or current Spanish and Greek) scale will eventually hit us too. In this situation you aint seen nothing yet for a repeat of the current Greek experience, including a major revival in street Anarchism, Revolutionery Socialism... and of course, the Far Right. Just be patient TruXta... its all coming down the pike.

But at the moment we live in the UK and its a bit shit, tbh...

 

[treelover]

You are seriously on Fantasy Island , Truxta... look at the recent election results in Greece and France, and Germany too.. the Left in various forms is growing massively in strength.. as of course are the Far Right. In Greece it is the Radical Left (and anarchists)who are leading the fight at local and national level against the austerity offensive. The Far Right Nazis have only won about 8% of the vote.But you choose only to look at the advance of the Far Right... as in "don't confuse me with reality... I've made up my mind". Your pessimism is just an excuse for personal inactivity.

RE: Germany, do you mean the 'pirate party'?

 

[treelover]

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/08/07-3

good to see LIberty moving away from their comfort zone and tackling class issues, maybe they will start looking at the civil liberties being destroyed in the welfare system..

 

[Citizen66]

Really? In that case the left is even more dead than I thought. Nothing personal, but this is hardly a hubbub of revolutionary activity is it?

It's a message board that some activists frequent. Unsurprisingly the anarchists don't organise themselves on here.

 

[Idaho]

Most left wing groups and actions fall under the description of subculture or clique rather than politics. 300 different groups each with a dozen members, who in turn harbour Stalin fantasies.

I would rather give Michael Gove lifetime presidency than let any of those psychos near a position of power.

 

[Pickman's model]

Most left wing groups and actions fall under the description of subculture or clique rather than politics. 300 different groups each with a dozen members, who in turn harbour Stalin fantasies.

I would rather give Michael Gove lifetime presidency than let any of those psychos near a position of power.

i don't think you've quite grasped the essence of anarchism

 

[Idaho]

i don't think you've quite grasped the essence of anarchism

I have ignored the entirely notional and fantastic (in the true sense of the word) essence of anarchism and instead focused on the personalities of leaders of left wing groups. Do you honestly think that it's all about political theory? If so, its time to open the curtains, tuck the Socialist Worker and the Razzle back under the mattress and go out into the real world.

 

[biggus dickus]

That's quite an interesting read.

http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/activism.htm

Some of the phenomena it describes are very clearly on show on this thread I think.

That sums up a lot of my feelings on the subject

Definitely get the impression that a lot of people can't see the difference between 'Anarchism' and 'Scouts'

 

[cesare]

I have ignored the entirely notional and fantastic (in the true sense of the word) essence of anarchism and instead focused on the personalities of leaders of left wing groups. Do you honestly think that it's all about political theory? If so, its time to open the curtains, tuck the Socialist Worker and the Razzle back under the mattress and go out into the real world.

Which of these leaders are you referring to? Name names, etc.

 

[treelover]

One thing the 'radical left could do, and does to some extent, is to publish/publicise in accessible and none hectoring ways, the brutalities of neo-liberalism in the UK such as the suicides resulting from the ATOS tests, the way many people are now being forced to work for nothing or workers who are increasingly underpaid or bullied by bosses in the workplace.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Actually that is probably the main reason tbf. Things just aren't NEARLY shit enough for the majority of people in this country yet.

my personal reasons for getting involved in left wing activism were mostly related to world wide issues. The amount of poverty in africa, asia etc. my own life is ok under capitalism, and whilst I am aware that parts of the uk have severe socio economic problems, very few are without food, shelter and other basics. But what I would ultimately like to stamp out is third world poverty. However, the battle has to begin at home. There are plenty of issues to take up in this country, and hopefully, by getting people to confront those issues and see the benefits of solidarity, we can combat the "im alright, jack" apathy, andwin enough hearts and minds to start tackling the big issues.

 

[Fruitloop]

One thing the 'radical left could do, and does to some extent, is to publish/publicise in accessible and none hectoring ways, the brutalities of neo-liberalism in the UK such as the suicides resulting from the ATOS tests, the way many people are now being forced to work for nothing or workers who are increasingly underpaid or bullied by bosses in the workplace.

Don't they already do that?

Is there an example of a radical left publication that has been studiously ignoring those issues?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The alternative is for people to make their own decisions about things and run things themselves. The alternative isn't telling them in advance how the world should be run.

this basically falls down however because we need infrastructure and organisation which requires by definition a method of structured control in order to make sure the train comes in on time or the milk gets delivered. That's not to say that these things won't just continue as they are or that they could work under other systems however people don't want a system were what little in terms of reliability and more importantly stability is removed.

we only need look at even the most peaceful of the arab spring revolutions to see that things do not get immediately better or indeed even short to mid term better and in the absence of these infrastructures then this degrades the existing status quo and further and promotes criminality and cronieism which makes for a worse not better society.

and people unhappy as they are don't want a worse society.

so they then look to the current system and say well if the alternative is gangsertism and despotism then we'll attempt to refine the current system which of course has infrastructure designed to bog down and impede any change which effects the status quo.

the net result is ultimately like people jumping into catapults and hurling themselves into walls to smash the system, and at the bottom of the wall lies a heap of broken bodies...

In order to change the current system there is only one real way to do this and it will take a significantly profitable and rich corporate to change the manner in which it defines profits from being money in the bank to being the welfare of everyone it comes into contact with from staff to consumers. And how their profit is turned into genuine actions of change rather than tax break get outs. they'd also need to do it in such a manner as to foster such fierce brand loyalty that it became economically unsustainable for other corporates not to adopt the same business practises or face going to the wall...

in effect the change from old school European production/corporate methodologies to newer Japanese/Asian production mentalities show that this sea change can and does effect the world in a way where if you don't join in you get wiped out corporately speaking. So all that needs to happen to effect change is to have an effective business model which ceases attempts to always created bigger bank balances at the detriment of everything else and starts attempting to raise the living standards of everyone...

Sadly that's likely to bring about a more fascistic situation than socialist one...

 

[treelover]

I don't mean their house magazine, journals, papers, etc, but totally unaligned info...

 

[Fruitloop]

Well it's difficult to do that when the main media channels are closed to you, what you're left with is the left media - which has spans continuum from intra-organisational talking shop to proselytising resources aimed at the general public. The only other option is the print-it-out-and-leave-it-around one, which I personally do quite a lot of as do plenty of others.

 

[treelover]

its had nearly six hundred views already, someone must be interested!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I read in a book the other day that there has never been a society without leaders in human history, and that even democracy don't work in a crisis.

I suspect you're assuming that "leader" always means the same thing, and that democracy also always means the same thing.
Of course, if you're basing your thoughts on democracy on what we have in the UK, you're on a hiding to nothing straight away, because we don't actually have any form of representative democracy here, we have a pseudo-democratic system that pats us on the head and allows us to vote for some wanker who'll go to parliament and represent their party interests over those of their constituents.

Personally I'd like to have a pretty good idea what the fuck the altnerative is before I completely denounce capitalism. We're better off than a country in full on civil war and famine after all.

Are civil war and famine necessary accompaniments to any idea of non-centralised self-governance, or is that just what people who have a vested interest in perpetuating the current system would like us to believe?

 

[TruXta]

It's a message board that some activists frequent. Unsurprisingly the anarchists don't organise themselves on here.

Nor am I asking them to. But on the evidence provided by leftie/anarcho participation on this board (which granted is scant and piecemeal), and the stories they tell of activism and organisation elsewhere, I'm not seeing any resurgence of a broad and popular left/anarcho movement. On the contrary. I'd love to be persuaded otherwise, by people not like ayatollah who's got their heads so far up their sectarian arses they can't see shit from Shinola.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Edie,Edie, you must be a Tory Troll to come out with such bollocks. Still at least you did read "a book" the other day. Unfortunately when societies go into a long period of profound social crisis,as it is at present since the 2008 Crash, "shit just happens" and all sorts of people enter into "resistance activity" on all sorts of levels - which can lead to beneficial revolutionery outcomes , or all sorts of reactionery shit. You "stick with capitalism" though if that's your bag. Growing numbers of people across the world seem to be growing into ever increasing oppositional mode though don't they ?

Condescending much?

 

[TruXta]

Condescending much?

Nah, he's got it all sorted, listen to that man, he knows what he's on about.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Where have you been since 2008, Truxta.. in a bunker on Planet Zog ? Seems to me. looking at the European political scene, that, after a 30 year collapse of the Left generally, and the Radical Left in particular, that if you shift your viewpoint just a tad from the UK, you'll find a gigantic resurgeance in all graduations of the Left in places where the world crisis is more advanced than here , eg, Greece, Spain, Italy,Portugal, France. You need to look at the international news a bit more I suggest .

The thread title specifially references the UK anarcho-left.
Not Greece.
Not Spain.
Not Italy.
Not Portugal.
Not France.

And why would we be talking about them, on a thread in the "UK P&P" forum?

You self-righteous muppet.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Condescending much?

that'll be 3 of your grocers pounds please love... and do you want me to throw in some lovely royal pipins with that go on sweet heart they're lovely apples for the time of year only 5 and 6 apostrophes to you but I'm cutting me own throat etc...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Well it's difficult to do that when the main media channels are closed to you

said someone posting on the internet...

there's not imilation to your access to media unless you're in china...

 

[TruXta]

The thread title specifially references the UK anarcho-left.
Not Greece.
Not Spain.
Not Italy.
Not Portugal.
Not France.

And why would we be talking about them, on a thread in the "UK P&P" forum?

You self-righteous muppet.

TBF to him I did say I think the Left is dead everywhere, not just in the UK.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Actually that is probably the main reason tbf. Things just aren't NEARLY shit enough for the majority of people in this country yet.

Things never will be shitty enough for a majority. That's one of the games our current mode of capitalism plays: To balance reward so that you never quite piss off enough of the middle classes to excite political consequences that can't be controlled. One of the reasons that some of the countries (Spain, Portugal and Greece especially) that Ayatollah mentioned earlier see greater civil disturbance is precisely because the current mode of capitalism isn't as embedded there as it is here, and doesn't have it's talons anywhere near as deeply into the middle and upper classes of those countries, meaning that a system of buying those people off (and consequently buying up the politics of that country) is nowhere near as complete as here.