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Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

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Yossarian said:
Holy crap, Trump and Pence are doing a "Thank You USA Tour" - if anybody in the future has invented time-traveling killer robots, now could be a good time to send them in...

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He's just flaunting his normal sized hands.
 
Miss Caphat said:
I read in some of the articles that Pakistan's broadcasting of the conversation may likely signal a disrespect for Trump, i.e. they're sort of mocking him.
Generally these phone calls are kept short, to the point, and the reporting afterwards is generally deliberately vague and neutrally positive.

Actual transcripts are not usually made public. The fact that Pakistan broke these rules of diplomacy may be somewhat worrying (and a sign of what's to come? more leaders openly disrespecting Trump?)
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Why would they do that?
 
Miss Caphat said:
Trump Didn’t Flip Working-Class White Voters. The Rust Belt Revolt Is a Myth.

Trump didn't really "win" the rust belt, according to this article. Clinton lost far more votes than the small amounts Trump gained. Many abstained.
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Wow. Imagine if people had said such a thing before today only to be met with accusations of being trump supporter/anti-feminist/bigot/not understanding that trump really did win all thee people and votes because they are simple racists and religious loons. That would be a crazy reaction wouldn't it?
 
Right, so it wasn't white working class religious racists now right? They're off the hook? And these areas are not filled with people like that? Yet the article can't quite let that suggestion go can it? See the concluding para.
 
Miss Caphat said:
I don't know - what do you think? I mean, I could guess at all kinds of reasons but I don't really know much about the prime minister or what it actually signifies. I know Trump wasn't following protocol either, that he should have had advisors there when he made the call.

This is one of the articles I'm referencing Donald Trump reportedly praises Pakistan's 'terrific' PM" - CNNPolitics.com
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I think the idea that pakistan - a state riddled with corruption, crippled by internal conflict between competing state institutions and wracked by sectarianism - would bother to troll TRUMP to gain liberal brownie points is ridiculous.
 
butchersapron said:
I think the idea that pakistan - a state riddled with corruption, crippled by internal conflict between competing state institutions and wracked by sectarianism - would bother to troll TRUMP to gain liberal brownie points is ridiculous.
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Maybe it means that Trump's politics are fundamentally incoherent, and that this is having a discohering effect on both America and its empire?
 
butchersapron said:
Wow. Imagine if people had said such a thing before today only to be met with accusations of being trump supporter/anti-feminist/bigot/not understanding that trump really did win all thee people and votes because they are simple racists and religious loons. That would be a crazy reaction wouldn't it?
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butchersapron said:
Right, so it wasn't white working class religious racists now right? They're off the hook? And these areas are not filled with people like that? Yet the article can't quite let that suggestion go can it? See the concluding para.
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I don't know, dude. I've been saying all along that the people being blamed for this are the wrong demographic. And that I've seen it in my own circles - it really hasn't been the working poor. It's more likely middle class people angry about perceived changes in their environment and government. But yes, this does include a high level of racism as well. It's impossible to ignore it anywhere on social media. It's been there for several years.

However, I did also see first-hand the religious loon aspect, especially amongst Evangelicals: namely the mental gymnastics Evangelical leaders went through to try to convince their flocks to vote for someone so out of line with the basic tenants of their beliefs. Which was utterly sickening. I know a large amount of Evangelicals did vote for Trump, and I'm not sure about the demographics of this population either.
 
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Miss Caphat said:
Trump Didn’t Flip Working-Class White Voters. The Rust Belt Revolt Is a Myth.

Trump didn't really "win" the rust belt, according to this article. Clinton lost far more votes than the small amounts Trump gained. Many abstained.
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Well that highlights a catastrophic collapse in the white and sub $50K PA Dem vote and some more modest GOP gains. Clinton really wasn't telling these people what they wanted to hear and most didn't believe Trump's promises.

Maybe all his childish name calling worked its juju on with Crooked Hillary though. It's interesting to consider Trump as a unlikable candidate who focused on undermining the mobilisation of his opponents base. While Republicans came out to vote reliably by summoning past demons from Bill Clintons hated reign.
 
butchersapron said:
Or maybe not eh?
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Seriously though, he clearly hasn't got a clue, which impairs his effectiveness as an operator of the "executive committee of the bourgeoisie".

Years ago I heard Mike Davis speak in Belfast, and he argued that GOP and Dems were both capitalist parties, but that represented different factions of capital. That still indicated an ability to organize politically to defend collective interests.

How much of that sort of organization is present in this . . . person. . . who will soon be appointing his horse to the senate?
 
Idris2002 said:
Seriously though, he clearly hasn't got a clue, which impairs his effectiveness as an operator of the "executive committee of the bourgeoisie".

Years ago I heard Mike Davis speak in Belfast, and he argued that GOP and Dems were both capitalist parties, but that represented different factions of capital. That still indicated an ability to organize politically to defend collective interests.

How much of that sort of organization is present in this . . . person. . . who will soon be appointing his horse to the senate?
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Capital doesn't really need to organise its factions politically in the US anymore. They already won the battle. They will have their people in place to work as limiters and guiders though. They've all the experience required for that. Trump is not stupid and will be aware of hustlers - but that'll be any battle, between two hustlers or sets of hustlers. It won't have any epoch changing effect - that shit it going on around them right now. The hollowing out of the state in the reproduction of capital to a basic set of authoritarian law imposing measures and very little else means they can have their fight (if they want too) without too much table turning drama.
 
Miss Caphat said:
a breakdown of the Evangelical vote

White evangelicals voted overwhelmingly for Donald Trump, exit polls show
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Exit polls show white evangelical voters voted in high numbers for Donald Trump, 81-16 percent, according to exit poll results. That’s the most they have voted for a Republican presidential candidate since 2004, when they overwhelmingly chose President George W. Bush by a margin of 78-21 percent
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Would perhaps be interesting to see how the WE vote broke down in 2008 & 2012, but these figures on their own don't suggest there's anything out of the ordinary going on here - of course most white evangelicals are going to vote Republican, whoever the candidate and whoever the Dems put up against them.
 
butchersapron said:
Capital doesn't really need to organise its factions politically in the US anymore. They already won the battle. They will have their people in place to work as limiters and guiders though. They've all the experience required for that. Trump is not stupid and will be aware of hustlers - but that'll be any battle, between two hustlers or sets of hustlers. It won't have any epoch changing effect - that shit it going on around them right now. The hollowing out of the state in the reproduction of capital to a basic set of authoritarian law imposing measures and very little else means they can have their fight (if they want too) without too much table turning drama.
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I'm not sure if he's not stupid (he probably isn't - after all, Dubya's Doofus act was at least partly an act). I don't know if he has the skills or interest necessary to get stuck in and do the job. The battle between the hustlers (worst sequel ever) may not signal any epoch changing event, but may be the sign of a "slow puncture" of state capacity. Capital may have won its battle - but will it be able to eh, save its capital in that context.

That Sarah Kendzior has been tweeting comparisons with authoritarian kleptocracies, warning that this is what is in store. Which is not to say that he will rename himself "Trumpenbashi" tomorrow but is not entirely implausible as an outcome.

The other thing is that the US's relative decline vis-a-vis it's challengers means that it can't just sit on its laurels and rely solely on the limiters and guiders

Then there's stuff like this:

Trump voter lost her home to new Treasury secretary
 
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Idris2002 said:
Maybe it means that Trump's politics are fundamentally incoherent, and that this is having a discohering effect on both America and its empire?
Click to expand...
Lincoln was a politician who attuned his message to his audience and often did something quite contrary. He wasn't incoherent just wily. Trump is entirely unfazed by changing his positions even within a sentence.

In business Trump reportedly slathers on friendly BS and then can get suddenly very, very nasty. He's a playground bully who likes his prey off balance for the sucker punch. That works fine in business I don't know if this guy will be a disaster in US international relations but Pakistan is an interesting test case.

Mushie after 9-11 confessed to having difficulty picking a side in reality when he did it wasn't even mostly ours. Pakistan has been fighting a fairly hot covert proxy war with the US over who rules Kabul for a decade and a half while the two countries have maintained a hilarious public pantomime of amicable relations. Trump's just adding a little Queens schmaltz to the fake bonhomie. He'll probably get to jabbing PM Sharif in the chest and calling him a treacherous Taliban loving looooser shortly.

Of course this amuses the Pakistanis; they mostly loath their politicians.
 
Miss Caphat said:
a breakdown of the Evangelical vote

White evangelicals voted overwhelmingly for Donald Trump, exit polls show
Click to expand...
That article reflects everything I've been hearing from and of them recently. They're basically a fanatical single-issue pressure group - if they see the chance to dent abortion rights, they'll jump at it, and the rest can be worked around with a bit of Christian forgiveness.

Interesting that, as a group, they are significant in Florida, a pretty crucial state. The breakdowns per state linked to earlier were revealing of the various cultural divides across the country. The deep south isn't quite uncontested red country, but the bible belt to the north of it certainly is. Impossible to have broad political appeal in the US, as it is here, of course, but at least here, it is possible to have broad cultural appeal - the likes of David Attenborough, for instance, although he's taken an unfortunate Malthusian turn recently. But even he'd be reviled by the US's hard-core god-squads.
 
Just to continue with the Evangelical thing for a minute, because I had to go digging to find this. This incredibly insane rationale for an Evangelical leader changing his mind on Trump and trying to convince others to do so had been posted on my facebook feed by an ex-coworker.
The fact that people who believe this drivel exist where I live, in arguably one of the most liberal state in the US, who are college-educated, well-off, and well-travelled frankly scares me.
It opened my eyes to the (pre-Reformation like) social and political control the church still has over (some) people in 2016.


  1. Finally, I have been studying I Samuel chapters 8 through 12 as I’ve been wrestling with the question, “Can I vote for a candidate for whom I have serious reservations?” In this fascinating passage, the Hebrew judge and prophet Samuel is grieved by the direction ancient Israel is going. He is grieved by Israel’s rebellion against the Lord. They want an earthly king, someone tall and strong and decisive — rather than the Lord — to govern them, lead them, protect them and solve their problems. Samuel goes to the Lord with great anguish to protest, but the Lord tells him three times to “listen to the voice of the people.” The Lord even directs Samuel to publicly anoint and bless a seriously flawed and woefully inexperienced man named Saul to be the king. The Lord does this even though He knows that Saul will fail the people and need to be replaced. But the Lord gives Samuel one further directive: Make sure the people understand what they are doing, and how urgently they need to turn back to the Lord – not to a man – to see their nation blessed and saved. “Now then, listen to their voice,” said the Lord. “However, you shall [also] solemnly warn them.” Did God tell Samuel to support a flawed man for the highest position of leadership in the nation even though it went directly against Samuel’s conscience? Yes, He did. But Samuel was never to stop calling the nation back to the Lord until the day he died. Now I am not Samuel, and Mr. Trump is not Saul. The details are different. But the principle is intriguing, and it has been helpful to me.
 
CrabbedOne said:
Lincoln was a politician who attuned his message to his audience and often did something quite contrary. He wasn't incoherent just wily. Trump is entirely unfazed by changing his positions even within a sentence.

In business Trump reportedly slathers on friendly BS and then can get suddenly very, very nasty. He's a playground bully who likes his prey off balance for the sucker punch. That works fine in business I don't know if this guy will be a disaster in US international relations but Pakistan is an interesting test case.

Mushie after 9-11 confessed to having difficulty picking a side in reality when he did it wasn't even mostly ours. Pakistan has been fighting a fairly hot covert proxy war with the US over who rules Kabul for a decade and a half while the two countries have maintained a hilarious public pantomime of amicable relations. Trump's just adding a little Queens schmaltz to the fake bonhomie. He'll probably get to jabbing PM Sharif in the chest and calling him a treacherous Taliban loving looooser shortly.

Of course this amuses the Pakistanis; they mostly loath their politicians.
Click to expand...

I was talking to a Pakistani taxi driver the other day, he said that he and his mates wanted Trump to win. He said that they thought that he'd end the drone war, I told him that I thought he'd be disappointed.
 
Transcript of the full letter:

This is not easy for me. I did not get to this point lightly. Rather, it has been a matter of intense examination of the candidates and party platforms, studying the Scriptures (particularly I Samuel 8-12; see below), and listening to many thoughtful voices in the debate.

Anyone who has been tracking my writing during the course of this campaign knows how deeply concerned I am about Mr. Trump — his lack of experience, flip-flopping on issues, and the unkind and at times even vulgar or vitriolic language he uses against his critics. I had hoped he would be defeated in the primaries. Or challenged by a plausible third party candidate. Or would drop out after the release of the deeply offensive video of him speaking with Billy Bush.

But this is where we are. Now, it is truly is a binary choice between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. There’s no way around it, and the moment of decision has arrived.

True, I had previously stated that I could “never” vote for Mr. Trump. So I readily concede this is a reversal. I have no doubt I will disappoint some for changing my position. But this is where I am, and I want to explain how I got here.

The heart of the matter is this: I have been going through what many Evangelicals are going through – an internal battle between competing convictions.

I could never support Hillary. Indeed, much of my professional life has been fighting the Clintons, dating back to when I worked for Bill Bennett and Jack Kemp at Empower America, and for Rush Limbaugh as director of research. So the question for me has been this: should I vote for Trump, a third party candidate, write-in a candidate, or not vote at all? For many of my friends, this hasn’t been a difficult choice. For me it’s been difficult to determine which of my deeply held convictions should be elevated as paramount, even when the others I hold so dearly are being violated.

To be sure, my vote is not more important than anyone else’s. I know many Americans are struggling the same way I am. Indeed, in writing this I’m not even trying to persuade you to agree with me. I have friends whose deepest convictions tell them they simply cannot vote for Mr. Trump, that they will trust the sovereignty of God and live with the consequences. I respect them. I don’t question their motives. I know exactly where they’re coming from.

But for those who are interested, here are ten reasons why I have decided to vote for the Trump-Pence ticket:

  1. The most important is this: Hillary Clinton must never be elected President under any circumstances. She must be stopped. As I have written, she would be an absolute catastrophe for America. Should she be elected and the Democratic Platform enacted, this dynamic would accelerate the country towards divine judgment and implosion.
  2. Hillary and her advisors may have committed federal crimes. The decision by the Director of the FBI to reopen the criminal investigation put into sharp relief for me the gravity of the situation facing us.
  3. Electing Hillary could very well lead to a constitutional crisis that could paralyze the federal government and make us vulnerable. These were points made this week by Doug Schoen, a senior Democrat pollster and strategist who once worked for President Bill Clinton. Schoen announced that he – a long-time Hillary supporter – could no longer in good conscience vote for her. This helped persuade me that I could no longer in good conscience avoid casting a vote to stop her.
  4. Aside from criminality, Hillary is the most corrupt and flawed candidate ever to run on a major party ticket for President. Americans are exhausted by the culture of corruption and scandal that perennially surrounds the Clintons. Four more years would distract us from tackling the serious challenges facing the American people.
  5. Hillary Clinton is the poster child for “politics as usual” at a time when we need change.
  6. Yes, as I stated above, I have deep reservations about Mr. Trump. I have not sugar-coated these concerns. Rather, I have written and spoken about them throughout the campaign. In January I wrote 39 reasons why a Trump presidency would be a catastrophe (see here and here). I concede this could still turn out to be true. But it also should be noted that in the ten months since I wrote those columns, an excellent Republican Platform was drafted and approved. Also, Mr. Trump has made a series of very specific and attractive commitments. He has promised:
    1. To pursue pro-life policies at the federal level
    2. To appoint Supreme Court Justices in the model of Antonin Scalia (and has issued a specific – and impressive – list of names from which he promises to draw to make his appointments to the Court
    3. To defund Planned Parenthood
    4. To rebuild the American military
    5. To protect America’s borders
    6. To strengthen America’s alliances with Israel and our Sunni Arab partners
    7. To repeal and replace Obamacare
    8. To cut taxes, reform the tax code, revitalize American manufacturing, create jobs for Blue Collar Americans, and expand economic freedom and opportunity for all Americans
  7. Do I have concerns as to whether Mr. Trump will keep all of these promises? Yes. But I have come to believe it is worth electing him in the hopes that he will keep his word. I am certain Hillary will aggressively pursue an agenda that goes against everything I believe.
  8. I believe Governor Mike Pence would make a superb Vice President.
    1. Lynn and I know Mike and Karen and have the highest respect for them. In our personal time with them, we have been deeply encouraged by their humility and character.
    2. Mike and Karen are devout Evangelical Christians.
    3. Mike is a principled conservative and is deeply knowledgeable and experienced in economic, social and foreign policy matters.
    4. Karen is a great friend, soulmate and counselor to her husband.
    5. More recently, we spent time with them in Jerusalem when the Governor led a trade delegation to Israel. They love Israel deeply. They love the Jewish people. Mike gets the seriousness of the threats posed by Radical and Apocalyptic Islam and is serious about countering them. He has deep respect for our Sunni Arab allies and understands the importance of working together with all our allies in the Middle East to counter Iran and ISIS.
    6. Mr. Trump was wise to choose Gov. Pence to serve as Vice President and deserves credit for the choice. If this is a signal of the type of leaders he will appoint in office, this would be a good thing.
  9. Hopefully, Mr. Trump would also appoint solid, experienced conservatives to key positions throughout the Cabinet and Executive Branch. I know for certain Mrs. Clinton would appoint hardcore liberals if she is elected.
  10. Finally, I have been studying I Samuel chapters 8 through 12 as I’ve been wrestling with the question, “Can I vote for a candidate for whom I have serious reservations?” In this fascinating passage, the Hebrew judge and prophet Samuel is grieved by the direction ancient Israel is going. He is grieved by Israel’s rebellion against the Lord. They want an earthly king, someone tall and strong and decisive — rather than the Lord — to govern them, lead them, protect them and solve their problems. Samuel goes to the Lord with great anguish to protest, but the Lord tells him three times to “listen to the voice of the people.” The Lord even directs Samuel to publicly anoint and bless a seriously flawed and woefully inexperienced man named Saul to be the king. The Lord does this even though He knows that Saul will fail the people and need to be replaced. But the Lord gives Samuel one further directive: Make sure the people understand what they are doing, and how urgently they need to turn back to the Lord – not to a man – to see their nation blessed and saved. “Now then, listen to their voice,” said the Lord. “However, you shall [also] solemnly warn them.” Did God tell Samuel to support a flawed man for the highest position of leadership in the nation even though it went directly against Samuel’s conscience? Yes, He did. But Samuel was never to stop calling the nation back to the Lord until the day he died. Now I am not Samuel, and Mr. Trump is not Saul. The details are different. But the principle is intriguing, and it has been helpful to me.
 
Today, I live in Israel and am a dual U.S.-Israeli citizen. But I was born and raised in the United States. I am an American citizen and profoundly grateful for this birthright. Heroic men and women have laid down their lives to give me the right to vote, and I am grateful. I can’t say I am happy with the choices I have, but I am finally at peace about what I should do.

To be clear, I am not endorsing Mr. Trump. I am simply saying I am going to vote for him (by absentee ballot) because Hillary must be stopped.

In the meantime, I will continue to pray faithfully and earnestly for the Trump, Pence, Clinton and Kaine families and for their teams. I will pray the Lord has mercy on them, and mercy on each and every American.

Finally, I will also keep meditating on a sobering passage of Scripture at this critical moment — 1 Samuel 12:22-25 – and encourage other believers to do the same:

“For the Lord will not abandon His people on account of His great name, because the Lord has been pleased to make you a people for Himself,” said Samuel to his nation. “Moreover, as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you; but I will instruct you in the good and right way. Only fear the Lord and serve Him in truth with all your heart; for consider what great things He has done for you. But if you still do wickedly, both you and your king will be swept away.”

——————

[This column is based on my personal beliefs and opinions. I share them in my personal capacity as an American citizen and an author. They do not necessarily reflect the views of The Joshua Fund, which is a non-profit organization and takes no political or legislative positions.]

from After much prayer and soul-searching, I have reluctantly decided to vote for the Trump-Pence ticket. Here’s why.
 
Trump did very well in Israel, he's doing very well with the pro-Israel lobby too.

Bannon of the 'renegade Jew', 'Polish Jewish Elitist' Breitbart headlines is alright with the ADL and AIPAC, whereas Keith Ellison is persona non grata for not being an enthusiastic supporter of Israel despite not actually backing BDS.
 
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