SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
And here we have it in black and white. You're not like me so you're not a real person. It's not about the animals at all is it? It's about your being superior.
Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?
- Thread starter Watermelon Man
- Start date
And here we have it in black and white. You're not like me so you're not a real person. It's not about the animals at all is it? It's about your being superior.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
I didn't say you were not a real person, I implied that on these threads you adopt a cowardly position in which you would rather shit on an embattled minority actually fighting and arguing for an end to the violent abuse of animals than take a principled stand yourself.
As for your claim of 'superiority' - precisely the opposite. I think all sentient animals (including humans) are of equal moral value and I don't think any of them should be violently abused. You display supremacist thinking when you say it is offensive to compare the other animals to us.
rubbershoes
not the only raver in the village
We had that months ago from another vegan claiming moral superiority
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Jeff Robinson said:
As for offensive things, Viva recently co-opted the #metoo hashtag created by survivors of sexual abuse and harassment to make a point about cows. This is just the latest example I've seen of a strategy of deliberately upsetting people with deliberately callous and idiotic behaviour. I objected to it because for one thing it's specifically targetting vulnerable people and that's always a cunt's trick, but also because it just doesn't work. And I don't believe it is even designed to 'work', it's designed like all other forms of trolling to create division between people. It's designed to reinforce the illusion of a handful of righteous warriors locked in battle with the evil hordes of untermenschen outside their little Helm's Deep of virtue.
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SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
There you go again illustrating my point for me. You're not an embattled minority. You can eat what you like, nobody is forcing lamb chops down your throat. The 'embattled' part comes not from what you choose to eat but from how you choose to pick fights with others about what they eat, and even then it's a battle you could end by simply shutting up, or just making an effort to be reasonable.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
You literally used the word 'nonhuman'.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Oh I see we should shut up about the violent abuse of animals or else we deserve whatever we receive? You truly are utterly spineless and cowardly Spooky.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
But in a series of posts that were weirdly creating equivalences between human and nonhuman.
Cognitive dissonance sure is a crazy ting...
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Again with the persecution complex. What exactly is it that you receive? Because if it's just valid criticism of your methods of communication, I don't think that's worthy of self-identification as an 'embattled minority'.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think this bit is worth pulling out because it is something a lot of people will disagree with. I'd be interested to know where you see sentience extending to - I would happily allow a degree of sentience quite a long way out into the animal kingdom, and for me, extending equal moral value that widely is simply unworkable.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Rascist!!
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
let me be clear, it is the animals who are the victims, not the vegans. But vegans are standing up for victims and are getting pushback as a result. That's what I mean by an embattled minority. I am not implying vegans are oppressed, we are not. But that you would rather nitpick vegans than stand up against animal abuse just demonstrates what a gutless coward you are.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
We arthropods are the real victims here. Even the so called animal rights people use us as a byword for cowardice and moral weakness. It doesn't even make any sense, our nervous systems are too simplistic to process subtle moral concepts or even allow for an awareness of the self, never mind the selfhood of other beings.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Shut the fuck up about being an embattled minority then I would. There are real embattled minorities in the world you know.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
They're just jealous because they can't even replace their own limbs. "Ooh, look at us, we're so delicate."
One decent-sized asteroid and we'll see who's still around in hundred thousand years...
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
I'm looking forward to watching all the vegans gleefully turn to cannibalism within 45 minutes of the impact.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
There are also embattled majorities too - like the billions of animals of who being slaughtered every year and who you will do fuck all to speak up for. Far easier to troll the plant munchers eh?
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
You're not a cow, so you're still not the victim here.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
It would be bizarre, if that's what I'd posted or meant. Advocate away, everyone who feels strongly should IMO, but at the point where you encounter the end of reason, the point where arguments are useless, I advocate stepping away and moving on elsewhere more receptive. You yourself may even agree, but there are people who do relish getting up people's noses about it all, I've met them and I have no doubt so have you. I used to be like that, a bit. But no actual animals benefit from it. Advancing the cause of animal rights isn't even the point of doing it. IMO that anger born of frustration is better used in some form of direct action rather than just having a go at people. I've made the same point already upthread and it got me called a troll.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Thanks for clarifying. I am in full agreement with you on this. In fact, in my own life there are many people who I do not even bother to broach this topic with, because I know it will be fruitless. Likewise there are some people on these boards who it is completely pointless to engage with. I sometimes partake in these discussions not necessarily out of the hope of changing my interlocutor's mind but rather because my arguments might be useful to readers. I was gratified to receive an PM once from someday who said that my contributions to a thread about fox hunter had persuaded her to go vegetarian and maybe vegan in the future. I receive PMs every now and then asking about issues relating to veganism. And there are some posters that I find it illuminating to engage with - LBJ for example, and these discussions can help me to clarify my own thoughts.
But I suspect that often engagement on threads like these is time that could have been more productively spent elsewhere.
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
Indeed. One of the reasons for being on a forum is to share ideas and learn new things from others and bounce ideas around. Similarly to what you said there, I have no real interest in persuading anybody or changing other peoples minds. I post links to articles, videos that I think are interesting/informative or give an interesting perspective on the subject and leave it to others to make up their own minds.
Over the years I have had many people contact myself and my wife both online and out in the real world, and as you said it can be very satisfying getting feedback from some of those folks and success stories from people who took the time to take on board some of the ideas and information that was shared and use it to make positive changes of their own.
Some people consider any kind of participation on forums to be a bit of a waste of time, and sometimes it can be, depending on who you're dealing with. I assume that people engaged in a discussion with me are being sincere until they demonstrate otherwise, and if I believe they are arguing in bad faith or trolling, then I'm well within my rights to "switch them off" and move on. There are a number of "bad faith" posters in this thread who appear to be far more interested in nit-picking side issues and feuding, and I cba wasting my time with that.
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
Some good stuff in there. I liked this :-
"As Audre Lorde famously said “There is no hierarchy of oppression”. All systems of oppression and injustice are intertwined, they stem from the same mentality of dominance and power. We cannot hope for justice for humans if we continue to participate in systems of violence towards our animal siblings. Our liberation is bound up together."
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Truthyness.
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
Blatant vegan propaganda...
...more people "going vegan". Not sure how many people are being turned against, but the momentum is growing and long may it continue.
...more people "going vegan". Not sure how many people are being turned against, but the momentum is growing and long may it continue.
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
BBC Radio 4 - The Food Programme, Young and Vegan
"...and one thing that's leaping out at me right now is how veganism is exploding, with dishes available in high street restaurants and a myriad of choice in the supermarkets. This fascinates me because I was a vegetarian in the 80's thanks to Morrisey, and I remember those dark days of nut roasts that resembled and tasted like a house brick, AND OF ACTIVE HOSTILITY IF YOU ASKED WHAT THE VEGETARIAN OPTION WAS WHEN DINING OUT. ...and as for vegans...they were from another planet. But in 2017, it feels like the vegans are making some serious progress and taking over planet earth."
Active hostility indeed, sounds familiar.
OzT
Online early mornings when at work ....
It's good that veganism and vegeterianisms (both spelling errors probably by me) are getting more popular, but do you think their food, when eating out, is way over priced? As in the raw material, plant based, would have had a huge mark up when presented in a resturante?
I'm not a vegeterian but looking at that section of the menu sometimes I think so in places I have been to.
I'm not a vegeterian but looking at that section of the menu sometimes I think so in places I have been to.
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if veg*n food is marked up any more than non veg food. I'm not one for eating out anyway so I may be out of touch with what's going on in the real world. I'm pretty sure that nowadays if you really wanted to and you were hungry you could find somewhere reasonably local that serves good value veg*n food.
Top 10 Budget Vegetarian Restaurants in London - Broke in London
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OzT
Online early mornings when at work ....
Oh I agree restaurants markups are not just the raw ingredients, I just woudl have thought be cheaper dishes than meat as the raw is cheaper, and, this is just my ignorance, I would have thought veggie dishes requires less cooking than meat dishes?
I reckon it's just restaurants making a larger percentages on veggie dishes for the moment, until maybe whenit becomes mainstream?
I reckon it's just restaurants making a larger percentages on veggie dishes for the moment, until maybe whenit becomes mainstream?
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