Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[beesonthewhatnow]

The International vegan flag has launched

Will make you angry fuckers easier to spot I guess

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Earlier this year I attended a vigil at Tulip slaughterhouse in Manchester, which gasses pigs before slitting their throats. This slaughterhouse is compliant with the UK's animal welfare legislation and is 'RSPCA-assured higher welfare'.

I already knew before attending that I was unequivocally opposed to this pointless killing of intelligent, sensitive creatures merely for the fleeting gustatory pleasure of consumers, but the experience reaffirmed this with a visceral intensity and sense of urgency that I was not prepared for.

Seeing these individuals through the vents on the sides of the truck was a deeply harrowing experience. They looked so innocent, so vulnerable and so full of sadness and fear. I looked directly into the eyes of one of the pigs and he stared helplessly back. I didn't see an 'animal': I saw another individual just like me. Somebody who no more chose to be a pig than I chose to be human. An individual who felt emotions just like I do and wanted to be free from pain and suffering just like I do. Why should his basic interests be ignored or discounted simply because of factors over which he has no control over? What tyrannous thinking to believe so.

View attachment 112532

I was overwhelmed by the injustice I was witnessing. It was particularly horrible knowing the fate that was about to befall these individuals and being powerless to stop it. Every week on my facebook newsfeed I see live feed from these demos of pigs arriving at the slaughterhouses with lesions, tumours, cuts, bruises, prolapses, foaming at the mouth from overheating and other forms of horrific suffering.

That was not even the worst bit. Round the back of the slaughterhouse you could hear the sound of the pigs shrieking and screaming when they were forced into the gas chambers. It was chilling. That sound will be etched into my memory forever:



I ask: how can this be justified? How dare we treat our fellow earthlings with such callousness and brutality? How dare we be indifferent to their plight? How dare we be complicit in this massacre and think that our palate preferences and convenience negate any moral consideration of the agony that animals must endure? It's absolutely outrageous.

There are lots of problems with the world and the solutions to them are often very complex. But the solution to the suffering of "food" animals is astonishingly simple: boycott these products, and encourage as many people as possible to boycott them. If there is no demand there are no factory farms and no slaughterhouses. In the UK alone it would spare about 1 billion land animals a year being put through this ordeal.

I am angry that easily avoidable pain, suffering and oppression persists on such a huge scale. Just as I am angry about global economic inequality, racism and gender violence. If you are not angry about these things then I suggest you are not paying enough attention.

I am an angry vegan. Sue me.

Thanks for posting that. It is chilling. And no it's not acceptable.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

The International vegan flag has launched

Will make you angry fuckers easier to spot I guess

Was going to post about that yesterday but was busy. Some folks have complained about it but I agree with ModVegan's summary...

 

[cupid_stunt]

The International vegan flag has launched

Will make you angry fuckers easier to spot I guess

What a load of bullshit.

 

[OzT]

but is it a good idea? should we be forcing pigs to eat among other things bacon and pork chops?

Well back home pigs, along with foxes and dogs, kills an average of between 5-10% of the stock on a station, specially lambs. Pigs have no probelm eating meat, as they're also know to scavange on their own dead, so I don't think that is a problem.

I believe it was the making herbivours eat feed containing meat, specially brain matter, that caused the BSE problem

ps this was in direct reply to the above quoted post, not adding or subtraction to the general debate

 

[Sphinxminx]

??? I'm not sure what you're saying there tbh. Viable alternatives to what? Why would a reduction in the consumption of meat and poultry lead to the loss of hedgerows and coppices etc? If that's already happening with the current high meat and dairy consumption why would it increase if less was consumed?


??? Again that paragraph wasn't very clear but I think I get the giste. Some people already have their minds made up and are digging their heels in even in the face of fairly compelling arguments. People quite often don't like change. As Shopenheur said "all truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self evident". The people who already have their minds made up are quite often hostile to the idea and are not likely to change their behaviours anyway, and may already be a lost cause. There are growing numbers of people who are willing to look at the available evidence and make up their own minds, as can be seen from the increasing interest in the subject (in the west at least). I don't see it as my job to persuade reluctant individuals to convert. Not sure who you believe has been "harangued" and told off, but anyway if you're happy with what you're doing there's no reason for you to change.[/

??? I'm not sure what you're saying there tbh. Viable alternatives to what? Why would a reduction in the consumption of meat and poultry lead to the loss of hedgerows and coppices etc? If that's already happening with the current high meat and dairy consumption why would it increase if less was consumed?


??? Again that paragraph wasn't very clear but I think I get the giste. Some people already have their minds made up and are digging their heels in even in the face of fairly compelling arguments. People quite often don't like change. As Shopenheur said "all truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self evident". The people who already have their minds made up are quite often hostile to the idea and are not likely to change their behaviours anyway, and may already be a lost cause. There are growing numbers of people who are willing to look at the available evidence and make up their own minds, as can be seen from the increasing interest in the subject (in the west at least). I don't see it as my job to persuade reluctant individuals to convert. Not sure who you believe has been "harangued" and told off, but anyway if you're happy with what you're doing there's no reason for you to change.

Hum. Looks like you are trying quite hard to not follow the points I am making, several of which echo some of your own views but you don't seem to want to recognise that. Not sure why although citing Schopenhauer at this time of the morning can't be good for anyone ( light hearted remark). BTW familiar with the concept of dialectic ta.You might find his analysis of free will and determinism interesting as you last remark could be said to reflect this although I reckon that his argument is good but flawed. Viable alternative to current farming methods, factory farming etc which are achievable with some sort of cohesive strategy to move towards less meat and poultry consumption is what I meant. Seems to me you are eliding and obfuscating the points I'm making so as to dismiss them. My fear is reduction of old fashioned small pasture farming would have the effect I'm talking about. Just a simple and specific point really as the alternatives could affect this type of landscape . The one I live in and try to preserve mixed wildlife friendly habitat. I agree about increasing awareness etc and have myself adapted my diet over time to include less meat and dairy. The video post of the judging you person mentioned above is a good eg of haranguing and telling off and the terminology in some of the posts above as already mentioned by several others.

 

[Sphinxminx]

Earlier this year I attended a vigil at Tulip slaughterhouse in Manchester, which gasses pigs before slitting their throats. This slaughterhouse is compliant with the UK's animal welfare legislation and is 'RSPCA-assured higher welfare'.

I already knew before attending that I was unequivocally opposed to this pointless killing of intelligent, sensitive creatures merely for the fleeting gustatory pleasure of consumers, but the experience reaffirmed this with a visceral intensity and sense of urgency that I was not prepared for.

Seeing these individuals through the vents on the sides of the truck was a deeply harrowing experience. They looked so innocent, so vulnerable and so full of sadness and fear. I looked directly into the eyes of one of the pigs and he stared helplessly back. I didn't see an 'animal': I saw another individual just like me. Somebody who no more chose to be a pig than I chose to be human. An individual who felt emotions just like I do and wanted to be free from pain and suffering just like I do. Why should his basic interests be ignored or discounted simply because of factors over which he has no control over? What tyrannous thinking to believe so.

View attachment 112532

I was overwhelmed by the injustice I was witnessing. It was particularly horrible knowing the fate that was about to befall these individuals and being powerless to stop it. Every week on my facebook newsfeed I see live feed from these demos of pigs arriving at the slaughterhouses with lesions, tumours, cuts, bruises, prolapses, foaming at the mouth from overheating and other forms of horrific suffering.

That was not even the worst bit. Round the back of the slaughterhouse you could hear the sound of the pigs shrieking and screaming when they were forced into the gas chambers. It was chilling. That sound will be etched into my memory forever:



I ask: how can this be justified? How dare we treat our fellow earthlings with such callousness and brutality? How dare we be indifferent to their plight? How dare we be complicit in this massacre and think that our palate preferences and convenience negate any moral consideration of the agony that animals must endure? It's absolutely outrageous.

There are lots of problems with the world and the solutions to them are often very complex. But the solution to the suffering of "food" animals is astonishingly simple: boycott these products, and encourage as many people as possible to boycott them. If there is no demand there are no factory farms and no slaughterhouses. In the UK alone it would spare about 1 billion land animals a year being put through this ordeal.

I am angry that easily avoidable pain, suffering and oppression persists on such a huge scale. Just as I am angry about global economic inequality, racism and gender violence. If you are not angry about these things then I suggest you are not paying enough attention.

I am an angry vegan. Sue me.

No. I respect you and your passion and commitment Your post doesn't have the effect a lot of the other pro vegan ones on this thread have , it doesn't make me turn against going vegan, it makes me think.

 

[ddraig]

 

[OzT]

I liked the above cartoon, elements of truth in it. Though no doubt there's the other picture with a vegan lambasting others about their eating habits and preching their morals. Great thing about these type of debates, makes for an interesting read as neither side will really sway the other, for the majority, imho

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Hum. Looks like you are trying quite hard to not follow the points I am making, several of which echo some of your own views but you don't seem to want to recognise that.

tbh, I found it quite hard to understand the points you were trying to make and had to read it several times over. Not trying to be funny but it might be worth at least minimal proof reading before you post. Maybe it's because you are posting on a phone, I don't know but your post barely made sense to me so it wouldn't be surprising if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

Not sure why although citing Schopenhauer at this time of the morning can't be good for anyone ( light hearted remark). BTW familiar with the concept of dialectic ta.You might find his analysis of free will and determinism interesting as you last remark could be said to reflect this although I reckon that his argument is good but flawed.

Sorry but I'm finding your writing style quite hard to read. Anyway, it was late last night when I posted it. There probably isn't a "perfect quote" that suits every situation, but the Schopenhauer one seems appropriate in this thread and I'm happy with it.

Viable alternative to current farming methods, factory farming etc which are achievable with some sort of cohesive strategy to move towards less meat and poultry consumption is what I meant. Seems to me you are eliding and obfuscating the points I'm making so as to dismiss them. My fear is reduction of old fashioned small pasture farming would have the effect I'm talking about. Just a simple and specific point really as the alternatives could affect this type of landscape . The one I live in and try to preserve mixed wildlife friendly habitat. I agree about increasing awareness etc and have myself adapted my diet over time to include less meat and dairy.

I don't believe I am obfuscating or dismissing your points, but whatever.
I'm not sure of the technicalities involved in preserving the landscape but what I don't get is the idea that somehow if more people stopped eating meat and poultry it would have a detrimental or some kind of catastrophic effect on the environment and biodiversity. That is counter intuitive to me and I would have thought that the opposite would be the case. Maybe the landscape might not look exactly like it does now, perhaps there might be more forested areas, I don't know I'm not an ecologist, but I can't see how the increase in vegans would lead to a decrease in biodiversity.

The video post of the judging you person mentioned above is a good eg of haranguing and telling off and the terminology in some of the posts above as already mentioned by several others.

It's funny how one sided this is. Vegans have been taking a hammering of mockery and ridicule for the longest time as evidenced in this and other threads and out in the real world, and yet somehow meateaters don't see that at all but home in with laser precision on the "bad" vegans and cite them as the reason that they will continue to eat meat. Talk about blinkered vision, lol. If you're that easily swayed by a single youtube video and the posting style of a single individual on a forum then I'm not sure that you were ever really up for it in the first place.

 

[OzT]

Looks like bad vegans are the same as bad cyclists, as are bad motorists, bad whatever.

Quoting the Osmonds here, One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch . . . .

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Looks like bad vegans are the same as bad cyclists, as are bad motorists, bad whatever.

Quoting the Osmonds here, One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch . . . .

Exactly...or bad BMW drivers, Volvo drivers, Range Rover drivers...etc

"I'm never going to drive a BMW because one cut me up on the motorway 3 years ago and I haven't forgotten it to this day..."

Are people really that fickle?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Definitely not going mainstream...

 

[Sphinxminx]

tbh, I found it quite hard to understand the points you were trying to make and had to read it several times over. Not trying to be funny but it might be worth at least minimal proof reading before you post. Maybe it's because you are posting on a phone, I don't know but your post barely made sense to me so it wouldn't be surprising if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.


Sorry but I'm finding your writing style quite hard to read. Anyway, it was late last night when I posted it. There probably isn't a "perfect quote" that suits every situation, but the Schopenhauer one seems appropriate in this thread and I'm happy with it.

I don't believe I am obfuscating or dismissing your points, but whatever.
I'm not sure of the technicalities involved in preserving the landscape but what I don't get is the idea that somehow if more people stopped eating meat and poultry it would have a detrimental or some kind of catastrophic effect on the environment and biodiversity. That is counter intuitive to me and I would have thought that the opposite would be the case. Maybe the landscape might not look exactly like it does now, perhaps there might be more forested areas, I don't know I'm not an ecologist, but I can't see how the increase in vegans would lead to a decrease in biodiversity.


It's funny how one sided this is. Vegans have been taking a hammering of mockery and ridicule for the longest time as evidenced in this and other threads and out in the real world, and yet somehow meateaters don't see that at all but home in with laser precision on the "bad" vegans and cite them as the reason that they will continue to eat meat. Talk about blinkered vision, lol. If you're that easily swayed by a single youtube video and the posting style of a single individual on a forum then I'm not sure that you were ever really up for it in the first place.

Eerrm that's not what I'm saying at all. You asked for an eg and I gave you one. I haven't said oooh she's horrid cos she's criticising me so I'll keep eating meat. I've also remarked earlier in the thread that slagging off either side isn't much use. LOL at yr comment re lack of clarity and proof reading - hee hee given what I do. I'm not understanding what I'm not up for in the first place. I know from experience haranguing isn't a good way to influence people's behaviours. No idea why you don't understand what I'm saying. I am linking several ideas and referring back to other earlier ones so maybe that's it. Don't know. Looks like we are never going to communicate effectively and that's just the way it is tbf.

 

[NoXion]

Apparently professional athletes are now representative of the general population. Who knew.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm surprised money was wasted on a new design for a V-flag, since a perfectly appropriate one already exists elsewhere.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Apparently professional athletes are now representative of the general population. Who knew.

Hmmm...I wonder how many people actually said that? Precisely zero I believe, ain't that something. Ms Derbyshire is pretty damn mainstream though.

Full video here...



I have a personal anecdote related to this tv appearance which is fairly longish so feel free to switch channels. Our family appeared on mainstream tv quite a few years ago, and also had somebody from Kings College talking nonsense like the ginger lady on the Victoria Derbyshire show. I was a bit reluctant to appear because I was afraid that we would be portrayed as freaks and weirdos, but it was ok. A cameraman and the health correspondent came to our house and spent about 3 hours filming and interviewing which was eventually condensed to about 2 minutes of tv time aired about a week later with a section from a doctor from Kings College edited in, I presume that there's some kind of editorial/legal obligation to provide "balance". Anyway he was saying the same sort of thing that the "expert" Sophie Medlin was saying. You need to be careful, you might miss out on nutrients etc, lol.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I'm surprised money was wasted on a new design for a V-flag, since a perfectly appropriate one already exists elsewhere.

People spend a lot of time on marketing and branding. It's not an area that I am familiar with however I prefer the veganflag logo to that black and red one. As with many things design related, you're never going to please everybody and there will always be people who complain, like the referendum over the kiwi flag.

So I do a quick google on the New Zealand flag referendum and one of the designs is a down under variation of the new vegan flag, lol...

New Zealand flag referendums, 2015–16 - Wikipedia

You learn something new everyday.

 

[gentlegreen]

Hmmm...I wonder how many people actually said that? Precisely zero I believe, ain't that something. Ms Derbyshire is pretty damn mainstream though.

Full video here...

45GgPYBsw70

A vegan couple who have been vegan for 12 days, another for a few months, a recent athlete convert and a clueless nutritionist.
I wonder what SHE eats ...

And when they complain that people might miss out on nutrients, I wonder how inexpert vegans compare with the general public.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

On my vegetarians need to be treated by a psychologist

On your what?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Judging by the new member's odd posts so far, I can't help thinking it's a bot.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

A vegan couple who have been vegan for 12 days, another for a few months, a recent athlete convert and a clueless nutritionist.
I wonder what SHE eats ...

And when they complain that people might miss out on nutrients, I wonder how inexpert vegans compare with the general public.

This was the reason that I was initially reluctant when we were asked if we would like to appear on tv. The way they frame the questions and unsympathetic editing can give the completely wrong impression. We were not in a studio situation so we didn't have to rush our answers, but on these types of shows with the time constraints they have it's quite hard to come across well and to express yourself properly. I'm not sure how the researchers select the panelists but I didn't think the lineup wasn't that balanced tbh. Mostly new and inexperienced vegans and a couple of nutritionists. I thought the newbie vegans did ok in the circumstances. I'm trying to find something positive to say about the nutritionists but imo they weren't great, especially Sophie's appeal to authority. The woman, the nutrition science manager was a bit better imo, but they both made it sound like veganism was some kind of black art that was very difficult to get right.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

So, due to being caught in a downpour today I found myself in a seemingly vegan cafe. I ordered a coffee (soy milk) and a bit of cake. Atmosphere was lovely, nobody was angry at all, so far so good.

However, if anyone thinks these are "just as good" as the real thing I can only offer sympathy, you poor deluded fools

 

[gentlegreen]

You have (any kind of) milk in coffee ?

 

[Wilf]

Was going to post about that yesterday but was busy. Some folks have complained about it but I agree with ModVegan's summary...

As a vegan, does it mean I have to look out for this flag when I'm looking for some oven chips at Morrisons, or will it just be on quinoa bearing produce?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

You have (any kind of) milk in coffee ?

Depends on my mood. Once I realised I was in a vegan establishment I felt the need to give the other side a go, in the name of scientific endeavour

 

[PaoloSanchez]

As a vegan, does it mean I have to look out for this flag when I'm looking for some oven chips at Morrisons, or will it just be on quinoa bearing produce?

I have no idea. It's all a bit new and the ink has barely dried. I didn't get the impression that it was meant for food labelling but more of a "unifying brand". I believe that various forms of green "V"''s are used, like this one...



I quite like the idea of the new branding and think the logo looks fine. I prefer the round version to the one on the flag

Vegan Flag International

 

[mrs quoad]

Guess us poor excluded carnists will just have to run a pair of beef curtains up the flagpole.

#instantrimshot.com

Christ.

That became worse and worse as I typed it. Sorry, humanity.

 

[coley]

I like cauldron lincolnshire sausages. Also quite like quorn. My cat used to go mad for quorn.

Linda Mac stuff is awful crap, though.

On this we will have to agree to disagree, I find cauldron products too spicy, whereas quorn and McCartney's, while nice enough on their own, is more suited for adding your own preferences, says the bloke who has trouble boiling an egg, my comments are lifted from the Boss and her observations of 40 years adapting and preparing vegetarian meals.

 

[8ball]

...that became worse and worse as I typed it. Sorry, humanity.