Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[Yuwipi Woman]

What 'on earth' are you on about?

Just going with the 'organic' flow of the thread.

 

[NoXion]

What 'on earth' are you on about?

Isn't it obvious? I don't think that modern civilisation will necessarily share the same fate as those far more agrarian and more technologically and organisationally limited societies that came before, but it's hardly crazy considering that we still grow almost all of our food outside in the dirt.

 

[twentythreedom]

Isn't it obvious? I don't think that modern civilisation will necessarily share the same fate as those far more agrarian and more technologically and organisationally limited societies that came before, but it's hardly crazy considering that we still grow almost all of our food outside in the dirt.

Apologies. It was a bad attempt at a pun. 'on earth' ie YW saying about studying soil.

The best jokes are the ones you have to explain

I'm here all week btw

Crap punning

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Apologies. It was a bad attempt at a pun. 'on earth' ie YW saying about studying soil.

The best jokes are the ones you have to explain

I'm here all week btw

Crap punning

Perhaps people here only appreciate more earthy humor?

 

[twentythreedom]

Perhaps people here only appreciate more earthy humor?

Eat my dirt

 

[Casually Red]

As an aside: Why do people call vegetables 'veggies'?

It's almost as anoying as people who call their dogs 'fur babies ' on FB.

Veggies is an acceptable short form for vegetarian, but surly not for vegetables?

I'm honestly not joking here. I even find it annoying when it's used to describe vegetarians . Like its " fun " or " wacky " or something . Forced hilarity at the the point of a parsnip is what it is . I think the words annoying no matter what the context .

 

[mojo pixy]

I first heard Veges used to mean vegetables in NZ. I've always assumed it's just normal NZ and maybe aussie slang.

 

[coley]

Yeah, the people who think that the future will involve veganism becoming mainstream are simply deluding themselves. I can easily see "traditional" meat reared in the conventional manner from live animals becoming more expensive, but that doesn't mean that people will become vegans out of some principled choice, but rather because economic conditions don't give them many options. In any case by that time I would expect that growing meat in vitro would have taken leaps and strides, which would thankfully mean that we wouldn't have gone backwards to the times when poor people could hardly afford meat at all. The development of in vitro meat would also enable vegans to enjoy meat, since it would never have been an entire living being. Assuming of course that veganism is based on ethical concerns rather than some weird quasi-religious objection to consuming animal protein.

Naw,don't fancy a steak, much less a one grown in a Petri dish

 

[NoXion]

Naw,don't fancy a steak, much less a one grown in a Petri dish

Your loss. A good steak is the king of meats.

 

[coley]

I think I'd dispute your language, but yeah, humans are creatures that of habit and unless you have a strong reason to do so, it's pretty hard to break. Taste and texture are heavily conditioned things.

For your arguments I think there would be value in seperating the heavy marketing of processed foods (and I have a total weekness for fast food, despite know how awful it is on many levels) and people's eating habits. I think most of those billions are spent on eating their version of meat and dairy. Beans out of a tin are fantastic and I've just ordered a pressure cooker to take to the next level. And yet I'm working away for a week with no refrigerator and a single gas hob and my main meal is packet rice, tinned beans, veg and few slices of chorizo. I'm also aware that that modern veganism is the result of a privaliged food distribution network. Seasonality and locally grown is a bitch if you live in the UK. My GFs job/business is growing/sourcing organic veg. Imagine no food miles from outside the UK in winter? Lucky we do have this luxury, but boy do I get told of buying veg at this time of year

So yeah I'm seeing through the "program" but dispute conspiracy. Eating habits are hard things to break without feeling like you are missing our. Especially if you like food as much as me.

"I'm also aware that that modern veganism is the result of a privaliged food distribution network"

In some cases yes, for those who want a huge variety of choice to 'enable' their vegetarian/vegan lifestyle, but for those that regard food simply as 'fuel' everything you need to subsist can be grown and stored on a reasonably sized allotment, tetties with everything sort of diet

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"I'm also aware that that modern veganism is the result of a privaliged food distribution network"

In some cases yes, for those who want a huge variety of choice to 'enable' their vegetarian/vegan lifestyle, but for those that regard food simply as 'fuel' everything you need to subsist can be grown and stored on a reasonably sized allotment, tetties with everything sort of diet

As bees, I think it was, said earlier, for many people, food is one of life's enormous pleasures, and a huge and rich variety of cuisines have grown up around the world reflecting the pleasure people get from food and the effort they are prepared to go to in order to produce delicious flavours. I would rank culinary achievements beside art and music.

A monotonous diet of bland shit would of course be bearable, as would a life with no music, but it would be removing a pleasure, removing a source of joy, especially when sharing it with others. Cooking food for other people and seeing their pleasure at eating it is something that gives me a huge amount of pleasure.

 

[coley]

Falafel is a great example of cheap food that is now being rebranded to be sold as much pricier food. I used to be fortunate that I worked by a place that did falafel wraps for £2.50. Was my lunch about twice a week. Now a few chains are springing up doing basically the same thing for five or six quid. Now that's your marketing folk in action.

Cor, I'm going to open a FF franchise selling fresh bread (baked by me SiL) and lentil soup made by wor lass,
Just need a catchy hipster name for marketing purposes

 

[Casually Red]

As bees, I think it was, said earlier, for many people, food is one of life's enormous pleasures, and a huge and rich variety of cuisines have grown up around the world reflecting the pleasure people get from food and the effort they are prepared to go to in order to produce delicious flavours. I would rank culinary achievements beside art and music.

A monotonous diet of bland shit would of course be bearable, as would a life with no music, but it would be removing a pleasure, removing a source of joy, especially when sharing it with others. Cooking food for other people and seeing their pleasure at eating it is something that gives me a huge amount of pleasure.

No sense explaining this to him . His best mates are a gang of hedgehogs .

 

[coley]

Ironically enough they've basically made it the same price as a meat equivalent. In the cheap place I used to get my lunch from, which was run by Turks, they also did meat wraps, but for about a pound more. If you're fortunate enough to have Turkish-run or similar places near you, you tend to get such things at the kind of price they think it should be, ie cheap.

Veggie alternatives becoming more mainstream may not mean them becoming cheaper. It can mean them becoming more expensive.

Same with the upcoming EV revolution, HTF can a car without an engine, drivetrain, exhaust and cooling system, etc etc, cost considerably more than one with all those expensive bits? Off topic, sorry but it's all about capitalism raking in the dosh from every move the consumer makes!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No sense explaining this to him . His best mates are a gang of hedgehogs .

I've known people for whom eating is a chore, a couple of people I can think of, both of whom suffered from eating disorders at one point in their lives. They both said the same thing: Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to eat? Just didn't have to bother with it. All I could say was 'no way!' Another, who lost her sense of taste and smell in a head injury, also found eating hard work, had to force herself to do it.

 

[Casually Red]

Cor, I'm going to open a FF franchise selling fresh bread (baked by me SiL) and lentil soup made by wor lass,
Just need a catchy hipster name for marketing purposes

"The old git"

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Cor, I'm going to open a FF franchise selling fresh bread (baked by me SiL) and lentil soup made by wor lass,
Just need a catchy hipster name for marketing purposes

If she can make daal rather than soup, you might be in business. A big bowl of rice and daal with a bit of nice bread to mop it up with is quite often exactly what I want.

 

[coley]

This is the thing with quite a lot of cuisines. One of my favourite Spanish dishes is chickpea stew. It's rich and gorgeous... and cooked with a ham bone to add flavour.

Broth, a staple from my childhood, it was fairly common for the hambone used in the first 'boiling' to be given to a hard up neighbour.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Broth, a staple from my childhood, it was fairly common for the hambone used in the first 'boiling' to be given to a hard up neighbour.

For want of a better phrase, it's peasant food, something there is still a tradition for in places like Spain and France, but not so much here any more. Rationing is partly to blame - it damaged our cooking culture.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Yeah, the people who think that the future will involve veganism becoming mainstream are simply deluding themselves. I can easily see "traditional" meat reared in the conventional manner from live animals becoming more expensive, but that doesn't mean that people will become vegans out of some principled choice, but rather because economic conditions don't give them many options.

lol @ delusional vegans. Well as Mark Twain is reported to have said "it is never wrong to do the right thing", and I completely agree with that quote. Even if it is seemingly an impossibly lofty ideal, the "right thing" is still imo something worth working towards and striving for and not delusional at all. It may not happen in my lifetime, however I have seen enough progress in the last 30 years to be optimistic. It is already on the verge of becoming mainstream as we speak, and the fact that this thread is so well attended is an indication that there's something going on. Most of the metrics that I've seen indicate a steady increase in numbers and a lot of interest, so I disagree with the idea that those people are deluding themselves.

In any case by that time I would expect that growing meat in vitro would have taken leaps and strides, which would thankfully mean that we wouldn't have gone backwards to the times when poor people could hardly afford meat at all. The development of in vitro meat would also enable vegans to enjoy meat, since it would never have been an entire living being. Assuming of course that veganism is based on ethical concerns rather than some weird quasi-religious objection to consuming animal protein.

I think this is more wishful thinking than reality tbh, and it appears to be something that meateaters assume that vegans would be ok with. In vitro "meat" is not the kind of frankenstien "food" that I find in any way appealing. I'm quite happy with the incredible variety of plant foods that are available, I don't have any sort of desperate craving for cultured meat, and consider it to be a bit of a waste of time.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

veggie sausages are just awful tho innit.

Plus I shudder to think about veggie sujuk.

 

[coley]

My (currently vegan) armpits smell of spices - probably the garlic in my stir-fry, or whatever's in the plum sauce I'm indulging in at the moment.

When I worked 'doon the pit' me marras were always complaining about my garlic flavoured sweatiness, though I was expected to accept their noxious burger/kebab flavoured farts without complaint

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I like cauldron lincolnshire sausages. Also quite like quorn. My cat used to go mad for quorn.

Linda Mac stuff is awful crap, though.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Nothing about the socio economic effects of the cessation of meat and dairy farming on the last few pages I read. Vegans will understandably and genuinely for them say it's a moral thing - the end justifies the means ( hello Marxist dialectic - nothing wrong with that but that is what it is).

All major changes have socio economic effects, does that mean that we shouldn't change anything? I understand that change is scary for many people and a lot of folks like the apparent (and perhaps illusionary) feeling of comfort and security in things staying the same as they always have been, "just like in the good old days". imo the reality is that change is inevitable and I think that we'd be better off if we learned how to adapt and embrace change rather than run away from it and try to cling on to old and outdated practices because we're frightened of the unknown.

Any experience of farming? Maybe some and fair do's in that case.

tbh, I'm not sure how relevant it is that consumers have experience of farming. I don't think it's necessary to be a farmer to recognise that much of our current food is produced using methods that are damaging and not sustainable. A gradual move away from livestock and poultry farming would help to at least slow down and maybe even reverse the damage that has already been done.

I do eat meat although a lot less than I was brought up on and do take action and make choices against factory farming. I was brought up on farms and live in a rural farming community. so what's the plan for moving away from a meat based diet (which I actually think is happeming anyway so maybe just slow transition).

Well, imo the best action against factory farming is to not buy the products that come from such a system. Vegans already have that covered. A tiny minority of meat eaters (based on sales) are prepared to pay the extra for more "humane" meat however the majority of meateaters appear to not really give a shit as long as they get their meat at a reasonable price. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. You might have missed the suggestion made in this thread that vegans should stop aiming for the "impossible" meat free future and instead form some sort of coalition with the grass-fed "humane slaughter" folk (a bit like the Tory/DUP coalition, lol). The belief being that this union would stand a better chance of reducing the suffering of livestock when compared to the seemingly unrealistic aims of vegans. I personally don't believe that to be a workable plan, vegans have enough of a challenge reaching agreement amongst themselves so I can't see them ever joining with folk who still believe that it's not morally wrong to kill and eat animals, one of the core tenets that nearly all vegans agree on.

Have my own chickens so no issues there. I'd miss the cattle munching away happily ( as they do) and the sheep dotting the hillsides. No meat/ milk no moo cows. Don't fancy the idea of massive prairies of GM cereals, the livestock going - along with hedgerows, coppices and associated biodiversity . Nicotinoids and no bees anyone? Good luck with fresh fruit and veg then folks.

I'm not sure that's an accurate picture you're painting there of what would happen if people stopped eating meat. Less biodiversity? Really? That's not my understanding at all, in fact it is our current meat and dairy gluttony that is having an enormous environmental impact and destruction of habitats in order to satisfy the insatiable demand.

 

[coley]

I expect any attempt to market insects directly as a foodstuff will meet a lot of consumer resistance. I think it's more likely that insects will be used as fodder for livestock.

Been feeding me tribe of hedgehogs on dried mealworms, just noticed they are imported from China! sign of things to come?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

"Wrongdoers" "bonecrushers" your PoV comes across as balanced and reasonable, until you let the auld hyperbole creep in, just a thought.

Yeah maybe, but it's just a bit of fun. I'm not sure what you've seen in this thread prior to your brief concentrated burst of posting however in the context of this thread and the interventions on other threads wherever this topic is raised, I think my choice of words is quite mild and harmless, especially given that vegans are more often than not on the receiving end of ridicule and mockery.

I'm not expecting every to like my choice of words of my even my style of posting, but I'm quite happy with it and do believe it to be logical, balanced and reasonable. Some people will of course disagree with that, and I don't have a problem with that at all, you can't please everyone, and people who find my content objectionable are not being forced to read or engage.

 

[coley]

I wonder how this would work.

It's all about ghost acreages.

Just lately as I investigate hydroponic food production, even after eliminating the obvious bullshit of vertical farms with LED lighting, I encountered massive enthusiasm for "aquaponics" - but even if you ignore the iffyness of keeping fish in tanks, the proponents aren't factoring-in the fish food - which, like animal feed, tends to be krill and "trash fish" (sic) harvested from distant seas ...

What will the insects be fed on ?

In a rational/logical world, us, expired humans

 

[ManchesterBeth]

also how can you not like feta, thats criminal.

i could do vegetarian but vegan is just nah.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

also how can you not like feta, thats criminal.

i could do vegetarian but vegan is just nah.

I do love cheese in all its wonderful forms. If I had to choose between cheese and meat, I might have to plump for the cheese, I think.

To those who recoil at the idea of eating cow 'secretions', I present a slice of aged gouda. Milk can be turned into culinary delights.

 

[coley]

It's interesting to me how many people here seem to assume that giving up meat would automatically lead to better environmental practices. The current most destructive practices are driven first and foremost by the destructive forces of capitalism. These are what need tackling and overthrowing. For me, a lot of the arguments are aimed at the wrong targets.

Fair point, but it's inescapable that huge acerages of rainforest are being destroyed in the rush to provide more land for cattle grazing or arable production to provide grain for animal feed stuffs.
Not a problem, if your unconvinced not bothered RE; AGW.