Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[Sphinxminx]

Nothing about the socio economic effects of the cessation of meat and dairy farming on the last few pages I read. Vegans will understandably and genuinely for them say it's a moral thing - the end justifies the means ( hello Marxist dialectic - nothing wrong with that but that is what it is). Any experience of farming? Maybe some and fair do's in that case. I do eat meat although a lot less than I was brought up on and do take action and make choices against factory farming. I was brought up on farms and live in a rural farming community. so what's the plan for moving away from a meat based diet (which I actually think is happeming anyway so maybe just slow transition). Have my own chickens so no issues there. I'd miss the cattle munching away happily ( as they do) and the sheep dotting the hillsides. No meat/ milk no moo cows. Don't fancy the idea of massive prairies of GM cereals, the livestock going - along with hedgerows, coppices and associated biodiversity . Nicotinoids and no bees anyone? Good luck with fresh fruit and veg then folks.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nothing about the socio economic effects of the cessation of meat and dairy farming on the last few pages I read. Vegans will understandably and genuinely for them say it's a moral thing - the end justifies the means ( hello Marxist dialectic - nothing wrong with that but that is what it is). Any experience of farming? Maybe some and fair do's in that case. I do eat meat although a lot less than I was brought up on and do take action and make choices against factory farming. I was brought up on farms and live in a rural farming community. so what's the plan for moving away from a meat based diet (which I actually think is happeming anyway so maybe just slow transition). Have my own chickens so no issues there. I'd miss the cattle munching away happily ( as they do) and the sheep dotting the hillsides. No meat/ milk no moo cows. Don't fancy the idea of massive prairies of GM cereals, the livestock going - along with hedgerows, coppices and associated biodiversity . Nicotinoids and no bees anyone? Good luck with fresh fruit and veg then folks.

tbf, globally many of those massive prairies are currently growing crops to be fed to livestock - for some the worst excesses of factory farming such as feedlot cattle rearing.

I'm also not so sure I see evidence that we're moving away from meat. In the rich world, without checking the figures, I'd be surprised if meat consumption isn't considerably up over the last 50 years. In China, meat consumption has grown enormously: according to the report mentioned here, up five-fold from 125 to 691 calories per day between 1971 and 2011. There are govt plans in China to reduce meat consumption, but it hasn't happened yet.

I'd also take issue with the idea of meat-based diets, aside from the odd tiny exception such as the Inuit. Most meat-eaters take in much less than 50 per cent of their calories as meat. This page gives a breakdown of calorie intake by country. If anything, globally our diets are more grain-based than anything, with meat/dairy/eggs less than 25 per cent combined.

 

[Casually Red]

They like to pretend that meat eaters suffer crisis' of conscience every time they sniff a steak!

I'm not seeing an ounce of conscience here , just absolutely delicious food and very ..very..happy eaters . Plus a woman running the place who's in her 80s and somehow managed to not die .



Anyone who'd even try and ban this .......

 

[NoXion]

Yeah, the people who think that the future will involve veganism becoming mainstream are simply deluding themselves. I can easily see "traditional" meat reared in the conventional manner from live animals becoming more expensive, but that doesn't mean that people will become vegans out of some principled choice, but rather because economic conditions don't give them many options. In any case by that time I would expect that growing meat in vitro would have taken leaps and strides, which would thankfully mean that we wouldn't have gone backwards to the times when poor people could hardly afford meat at all. The development of in vitro meat would also enable vegans to enjoy meat, since it would never have been an entire living being. Assuming of course that veganism is based on ethical concerns rather than some weird quasi-religious objection to consuming animal protein.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Will be interesting to see if cultured meat takes off. I could see somewhere like China adopting it on a large scale. If it does take off, it won't be due to loads of people thinking that killing animals for meat is wrong, though. In fact, I would anticipate a fair bit of resistance towards it until it becomes cheap. I'd like to see us eating more insects for our protein (growing insects is a pretty efficient way of making protein) but that's going to be resisted too.

This UN doc mentions a few intriguing possibilities for insects, including feeding them on shit - and then feeding them to livestock, mind, to reduce livestock's environmental impact. That's another possibility for the future, that producing meat through livestock could become much less environmentally damaging through things like insect farming.

It's been mentioned much earlier in the thread, but the cultural traditions associated with our eating habits may be hard to change, and we shouldn't underestimate how much people value them.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I missed this with all the meat eating posts about Hitler and that... I said a while back that the only reasons to eat dead animals are taste and to make money for the meat and dairy industry (which comes under programming). The meat and dairy industry spend BILLIONS on programming (or marketing) humans to continue to eat meat. Convenience is a myth. Beans out of a tin? Cooking beans? Tofu? (ok tofu needs some serious dressing up -I admit). It's good that some dead animal eaters like yourself can partly see through the programming.

I think I'd dispute your language, but yeah, humans are creatures that of habit and unless you have a strong reason to do so, it's pretty hard to break. Taste and texture are heavily conditioned things.

For your arguments I think there would be value in seperating the heavy marketing of processed foods (and I have a total weekness for fast food, despite know how awful it is on many levels) and people's eating habits. I think most of those billions are spent on eating their version of meat and dairy. Beans out of a tin are fantastic and I've just ordered a pressure cooker to take to the next level. And yet I'm working away for a week with no refrigerator and a single gas hob and my main meal is packet rice, tinned beans, veg and few slices of chorizo. I'm also aware that that modern veganism is the result of a privaliged food distribution network. Seasonality and locally grown is a bitch if you live in the UK. My GFs job/business is growing/sourcing organic veg. Imagine no food miles from outside the UK in winter? Lucky we do have this luxury, but boy do I get told of buying veg at this time of year

So yeah I'm seeing through the "program" but dispute conspiracy. Eating habits are hard things to break without feeling like you are missing our. Especially if you like food as much as me.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Yeah, the people who think that the future will involve veganism becoming mainstream are simply deluding themselves. I can easily see "traditional" meat reared in the conventional manner from live animals becoming more expensive, but that doesn't mean that people will become vegans out of some principled choice, but rather because economic conditions don't give them many options. In any case by that time I would expect that growing meat in vitro would have taken leaps and strides, which would thankfully mean that we wouldn't have gone backwards to the times when poor people could hardly afford meat at all. The development of in vitro meat would also enable vegans to enjoy meat, since it would never have been an entire living being. Assuming of course that veganism is based on ethical concerns rather than some weird quasi-religious objection to consuming animal protein.

In a proper distopian future (poet Brexit) it just makes sense. Its cheap and nutritious compared to shit meat products if we discount the ethics. I'm away from home way to much and travelling about. If I could be served hot dahl and rice over McDonald's, quickly and in a way that left you full, kinda like your travelling around India, then fuck yeah. I'll probably eat vat grown meat when it comes across, but can't imagine it being great for us.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Pah, there's no conspiracy. Lots of people around the world eat little meat because they cannot afford it, and generally speaking, the richer people get the more meat they eat - because they can afford it. No hard sell required.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In a proper distopian future (poet Brexit) it just makes sense. Its cheap and nutritious compared to shit meat products if we discount the ethics. I'm away from home way to much and travelling about. If I could be served hot dahl and rice over McDonald's, quickly and in a way that left you full, kinda like your travelling around India, then fuck yeah. I'll probably eat vat grown meat when it comes across, but can't imagine it being great for us.

Me too. I often eat crap food because that's the only thing in front of me at that moment. I'd love our food culture to change and give me other options, and those other options would definitely mean me eating less meat.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Nothing about the socio economic effects of the cessation of meat and dairy farming on the last few pages I read. Vegans will understandably and genuinely for them say it's a moral thing - the end justifies the means ( hello Marxist dialectic - nothing wrong with that but that is what it is). Any experience of farming? Maybe some and fair do's in that case. I do eat meat although a lot less than I was brought up on and do take action and make choices against factory farming. I was brought up on farms and live in a rural farming community. so what's the plan for moving away from a meat based diet (which I actually think is happeming anyway so maybe just slow transition). Have my own chickens so no issues there. I'd miss the cattle munching away happily ( as they do) and the sheep dotting the hillsides. No meat/ milk no moo cows. Don't fancy the idea of massive prairies of GM cereals, the livestock going - along with hedgerows, coppices and associated biodiversity . Nicotinoids and no bees anyone? Good luck with fresh fruit and veg then folks.

I do

Farming is fucked in the UK. We have loads of land that is massively under utilised. Aging farmers. Supermarkets that made it uneconomic to produce various food stuffs. All well and good when we can afford import what we need, but we all know how great capatalsim is at looking after people right? This is even before we get in to the oil we eat (getting of the subject I know). So animal rights aside we have massive issues with food sovereignty and food miles. Massively dependent on fossil fuels. The idea we should eat meat with every meal is fucked.

So the plan? Where you can graze cows you can generally get 10 times the food produce if we grow vegetables. It will of course mean changing the way we eat and live.

I'm not going to give up eating meat, but think we could all do better for our own health and that of environment if we all eat less of it. So I'm going to continue to pay attention to the vegans. Because in between everything there is some tasty shit to be had.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Me too. I often eat crap food because that's the only thing in front of me at that moment. I'd love our food culture to change and give me other options, and those other options would definitely mean me eating less meat.

Let's redifien this then. The more people shun eating awful processed meat then the more options we have.

Falfal over a Big Mac. Fuck Yeah. But not at hipster prices.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Let's redifien this then. The more people shun eating awful processed meat then the more options we have.

Falfal over a Big Mac. Fuck Yeah. But not at hipster prices.

Falafel is a great example of cheap food that is now being rebranded to be sold as much pricier food. I used to be fortunate that I worked by a place that did falafel wraps for £2.50. Was my lunch about twice a week. Now a few chains are springing up doing basically the same thing for five or six quid. Now that's your marketing folk in action.

 

[mojo pixy]

There's one in Bristol I've stopped eating at. They've hiked their large/small prices from £5/£3.50 to £7/£5 in the last 2 years. So at least someone's had a decent pay rise recently.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Falafel is a great example of cheap food that is now being rebranded to be sold as much pricier food. I used to be fortunate that I worked by a place that did falafel wraps for £2.50. Was my lunch about twice a week. Now a few chains are springing up doing basically the same thing for five or six quid. Now that's your marketing folk in action.

See cheap as I know it is to make, I'd still probably pay that tomorrow if it was proper hearty and was served quick. I'll be finishing 5 days physical work and then have a good few hours drive and will be starving and not want to faf on my home. My average spend in McDs at this point will be £7.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's one in Bristol I've stopped eating at. They've hiked their large/small prices from £5/£3.50 to £7/£5 in the last 2 years. So at least someone's had a decent pay rise recently.

Ironically enough they've basically made it the same price as a meat equivalent. In the cheap place I used to get my lunch from, which was run by Turks, they also did meat wraps, but for about a pound more. If you're fortunate enough to have Turkish-run or similar places near you, you tend to get such things at the kind of price they think it should be, ie cheap.

Veggie alternatives becoming more mainstream may not mean them becoming cheaper. It can mean them becoming more expensive.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

See cheap as I know it is to make, I'd still probably pay that tomorrow if it was proper hearty and was served quick. I'll be finishing 5 days physical work and then have a good few hours drive and will be starving and not want to faf on my home. My average spend in McDs at this point will be £7.

I almost never eat in McD's/Burger King (my drunken shit food of choice is normally something like a doner kebab), but when I do go in, I'm always struck by how expensive such places are. Whenever I see a Burger King at a service station, I often think about having something then shuffle off to find the Greggs.

 

[mojo pixy]

Same in curry houses. The ''vegetable'' curries 9 times out of 10 are basically bog standard frozen veg chucked in the same curry sauce as the meat (which won't be vegan anyway as cooked in ghee), for maybe £1 - £1.50 less than the meat ones. There are fully veg things usually on the starters menu, but it's rare to see properly made, meant-to-be veg mains on an Indian menu, unless it's an actual dedicated veg place.

Chinese? Worse still, generally. But as I understand it, in China vegetarianism and especially veganism are rare and hard to keep to strictly. Unlike in India, where it's common and easy to be veggie.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I really like food cooked in ghee.

I'm also quite fond of MSG.

 

[mojo pixy]

Fish sauce is vile stuff but at the end of the day it's the magic ingredient that makes Thai food so gorgeous.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fish sauce is vile stuff but at the end of the day it's the magic ingredient that makes Thai food so gorgeous.

This is the thing with quite a lot of cuisines. One of my favourite Spanish dishes is chickpea stew. It's rich and gorgeous... and cooked with a ham bone to add flavour.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Ironically enough they've basically made it the same price as a meat equivalent. In the cheap place I used to get my lunch from, which was run by Turks, they also did meat wraps, but for about a pound more. If you're fortunate enough to have Turkish-run or similar places near you, you tend to get such things at the kind of price they think it should be, ie cheap.

Veggie alternatives becoming more mainstream may not mean them becoming cheaper. It can mean them becoming more expensive.

There is no reason that prepared veggie foods need to be much cheaper if they are done well as compared to to some shit option that involves low quality meat. You can pay a tenner for burger and chips. I generally wouldn't but I think as a social we are a bit more intrested in food then we used to be and hipster or whatever that's not a bad thing.

I'm not sure I like the term programing for various reasons, but I understand it. Our food tastes are quite ingrained. For me fast food is something I eat on the road when I don't have access to my kitchen. I've been away for a bit and craving some chickpea cooked in coca nut milk with some dahl and brown rice. And some chicken tandoori I've had marinading all day.

I almost never eat in McD's/Burger King (my drunken shit food of choice is normally something like a doner kebab), but when I do go in, I'm always struck by how expensive such places are. Whenever I see a Burger King at a service station, I often think about having something then shuffle off to find the Greggs.

Yeah. Burger King inflate their prices in service stations by a few quid where as McDonald's have a fixed price and the "quality" is more consistent.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I really like food cooked in ghee.

I'm also quite fond of MSG.

Turns out that saturated fats for frying aren't as bad as we've been told so you don't need to feel so guilty. Ghee makes awesome dahl. Google smoke points.

MSG is also amazing for making simple meals taste better. That Aromat stuff is great.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I make a good chickpea stew. It's hard to get hold of ham bones, but I've done it with bones from previous meals, and it definitely adds to the flavour. My veggie-friendly version is good. But my veggie-unfriendly version is better.

 

[mojo pixy]

Once in Israel I was served up so-called vegetarian Cholent that it turned out had been cooked with a bone in it. I didn't care much because it was extremely nice and tbf arguing with strangers on Shabat in their own home would have been rather a faux pas. Even in Israel.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah. Burger King inflate their prices in service stations by a few quid where as McDonald's have a fixed price and the "quality" is more consistent.

I think subconsciously my point of reference is Wetherspoons. If it's more expensive than a spoons, that's kind of wrong.

 

[Sphinxminx]

Fish sauce is vile stuff but at the end of the day it's the magic ingredient that makes Thai food so gorgeous.

and shrimp paste

 

[gentlegreen]

My (currently vegan) armpits smell of spices - probably the garlic in my stir-fry, or whatever's in the plum sauce I'm indulging in at the moment.

 

[Sphinxminx]

I do

Farming is fucked in the UK. We have loads of land that is massively under utilised. Aging farmers. Supermarkets that made it uneconomic to produce various food stuffs. All well and good when we can afford import what we need, but we all know how great capatalsim is at looking after people right? This is even before we get in to the oil we eat (getting of the subject I know). So animal rights aside we have massive issues with food sovereignty and food miles. Massively dependent on fossil fuels. The idea we should eat meat with every meal is fucked.

So the plan? Where you can graze cows you can generally get 10 times the food produce if we grow vegetables. It will of course mean changing the way we eat and live.

I'm not going to give up eating meat, but think we could all do better for our own health and that of environment if we all eat less of it. So I'm going to continue to pay attention to the vegans. Because in between everything there is some tasty shit to be had.

Glad you mentioned the food miles/ fossil fuels issue as that's an issue across the range. And farming practices. Rice? Don't know enough about rice growing etc to say. As I said I am tending to eat less meat anyway and can see that happening more ( which is all I was saying about meat based diets, just me and what I've seen of general increased awareness not a global comparison). I don't have an issue listening and eating more healthily with animal welfare in mind. I do object to being harangued by people who maintain a moral high ground on the basis of what is often inaccurate information and sweeping generalisations. Do they wear cotton I wonder? Another topic but causes massive environmental damage according to a BBC radio documentary I heard. Don't start me on palm oil.....

 

[NoXion]

I expect any attempt to market insects directly as a foodstuff will meet a lot of consumer resistance. I think it's more likely that insects will be used as fodder for livestock.

 

[gentlegreen]

I expect any attempt to market insects directly as a foodstuff will meet a lot of consumer resistance. I think it's more likely that insects will be used as fodder for livestock.

I wonder how this would work.

It's all about ghost acreages.

Just lately as I investigate hydroponic food production, even after eliminating the obvious bullshit of vertical farms with LED lighting, I encountered massive enthusiasm for "aquaponics" - but even if you ignore the iffyness of keeping fish in tanks, the proponents aren't factoring-in the fish food - which, like animal feed, tends to be krill and "trash fish" (sic) harvested from distant seas ...

What will the insects be fed on ?