Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[coley]

In the West, there is some evidence that meat consumption is going down, from its freakishly high levels. Overall, though world-wide meat consumption is going up. It's getting cheap enough that every larger numbers of people can afford it. I do wonder if the planet can afford it.

"The US alone has 93 million cattle"
Currently being pursued by Trumps 'illegal voters commission'

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fair point, but it's inescapable that huge acerages of rainforest are being destroyed in the rush to provide more land for cattle grazing or arable production to provide grain for animal feed stuffs.
Not a problem, if your unconvinced not bothered RE; AGW.

Yes, not just rainforests. Something like a third of all farmland in Argentina is now turned over to soya to feed to cattle that are kept in sheds all their lives. It's perverse. But its perversity is a product of capitalist forces: better to destroy the soil and viability over 50 years and produce a good return than to produce less, or the same but with greater labour costs, indefinitely. Capital doesn't care about the long term. Its logic allows it, indeed compels it, to destroy and move on. Except that one day there will be nowhere to move on to.

Those same destructive forces would be in operation in a meat-free world. Seitan, anyone? That takes a lot of energy to produce. It's not not eating meat on its own that changes the systems, it's a concern for conservation and sustainability.

It saddens me somewhat when various people on this thread disallow the possibility of joining forces with non-vegans who want to change these systems. Surely we should be on the same side in this, change would be far more easily achieved if we were.

 

[Corax]

I keep skim reading the thread title as "Do Angry Vegans Turn You On?" and it conjures some really quite disturbing imagery...

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Fair point, but it's inescapable that huge acerages of rainforest are being destroyed in the rush to provide more land for cattle grazing or arable production to provide grain for animal feed stuffs.
Not a problem, if your unconvinced not bothered RE; AGW.

I don't know how it would be possible for there not to be some sort of improvement or at very least a lessening of the massively negative environmental impact associated with livestock and poultry farming that would result from a gradual reduction in the consumption of meat and chicken.

 

[coley]

Yep, in other words, mostly going back to good practices from the past. Pig farming could be located at the edges of cities, the pigs eating our food waste.

Pigs eating our food waste!!

Maybe we could bring back serfdom and trials for witchcraft too. I'm not convinced that the dilemma between current agricultural practice and going backwards to rural idiocy is a real one.

"Rural idiocy"? have you any idea of how much perfectly good food is sent to landfill every day? Feeding it to pigs alongside other food waste is a perfectly good idea.

 

[coley]

but is it a good idea? should we be forcing pigs to eat among other things bacon and pork chops?

They wouldn't mind one bit

 

[Sphinxminx]

All major changes have socio economic effects, does that mean that we shouldn't change anything? I understand that change is scary for many people and a lot of folks like the apparent (and perhaps illusionary) feeling of comfort and security in things staying the same as they always have been, "just like in the good old days". imo the reality is that change is inevitable and I think that we'd be better off if we learned how to adapt and embrace change rather than run away from it and try to cling on to old and outdated practices because we're frightened of the unknown.

tbh, I'm not sure how relevant it is that consumers have experience of farming. I don't think it's necessary to be a farmer to recognise that much of our current food is produced using methods that are damaging and not sustainable. A gradual move away from livestock and poultry farming would help to at least slow down and maybe even reverse the damage that has already been done.

Well, imo the best action against factory farming is to not buy the products that come from such a system. Vegans already have that covered. A tiny minority of meat eaters (based on sales) are prepared to pay the extra for more "humane" meat and appear to not really give a shit. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. You might have missed the suggestion made in this thread that vegans should stop aiming for the "impossible" meat free future and instead form some sort of coalition with the grass-fed "humane slaughter" folk (a bit like the Tory/DUP coalition, lol). The belief being that this union would stand a better chance of reducing the suffering of livestock when compared to the seemingly unrealistic aims of vegans. I personally don't believe that to be a workable plan, vegans have enough of a challenge reaching agreement amongst themselves so I can't see them ever joining with folk who still believe that it's not morally wrong to kill and eat animals, one of the core tenets that nearly all vegans agree on.

I'm not sure that's an accurate picture you're painting there of what would happen if people stopped eating meat. Less biodiversity? Really? That's not my understanding at all, in fact it is our current meat and dairy gluttony that is having an enormous environmental impact and destruction of habitats in order to satisfy the insatiable demand.

I'm not saying don't change nor that only farmers can comment. There isn't much on the thread about viable alternatives or the plan to get there (which is similar to what you say). So the classic British small field and hedgerows ( not factory or large scale agri) are destruction of habitats? I don't think so (as you say). It's the loss of hedgerows and coppices that is doing that as well as drainage of wetlands and the huge depletion of riverine woodland which has happened over the last couple of centuries. I am talking about the UK countryside as that's what I know about. Not convinced by the majority of arguments on this thread from what come across as oh so self righteous vegans, which are not at all persuasive. What I do think is that just being harangued and told off by some of the posts on this thread is not an effective way to change behaviours. Going back to a previous post I don't agree it's a bit of fun or that people don't have to engage so it's ok. You could say that about any form of inappropriate language or abuse - doesn't make it ok. Also to say it's fair as that's what vegans usually get is not a good reason to reflect negative behaviours or then everyone just ends up having a slanging match.

 

[coley]

Funny, I was once told that the Saudis had enough oil to give them a century of profits. Which tallies with how that Peak Oil nonsense, which was popular among internet survivalists around the turn of the century, turned out not to mean that shopping for petrol now carries a significant risk that one would get their throat slit. The oil is not going to run out this century, although the quality of newly discovered deposits has certainly gone down the drain, as can be seen with the fact that fracking is now considered commercially viable (sort of - market fluctuations seem to be a risk for fracking operations). No, the real risk with oil and fossil fuels in general is their adding to the carbon content of the atmosphere, which is already on course to cause significant disruption to civilisation this century.

Coals dead, oils next, the CEO of Shell is in the market for an EV(though doubt he has a Nissan Leaf in mind)

 

[coley]

Funny, I was once told that the Saudis had enough oil to give them a century of profits. Which tallies with how that Peak Oil nonsense, which was popular among internet survivalists around the turn of the century, turned out not to mean that shopping for petrol now carries a significant risk that one would get their throat slit. The oil is not going to run out this century, although the quality of newly discovered deposits has certainly gone down the drain, as can be seen with the fact that fracking is now considered commercially viable (sort of - market fluctuations seem to be a risk for fracking operations). No, the real risk with oil and fossil fuels in general is their adding to the carbon content of the atmosphere, which is already on course to cause significant disruption to civilisation this century.

"The stone age didn't end because of a shortage of stones".....@the Saudi oil minister, can't be bothered to link his name.

 

[coley]

No matter if we continue to eat meat or not, we do need to better manage our soils.



Farmland Could Help Combat Climate Change

Zero/minimal till is a big step in the right direction.

 

[coley]

Your loss. A good steak is the king of meats.

No problem, been there, done that, rare, very rare used to be my preference, now? A bowl of lentil soup and a wedge of home baked bread. Meat? Let those that need it crack on, just leave the beer and whisky producers alone

 

[Sphinxminx]

To answer the original question and subject of this thread- yes.

 

[coley]

I like cauldron lincolnshire sausages. Also quite like quorn. My cat used to go mad for quorn.

Linda Mac stuff is awful crap, though.

Horses for courses, esp so if you a liking a a bit of 'beef'

 

[Casually Red]

Been feeding me tribe of hedgehogs on dried mealworms, just noticed they are imported from China! sign of things to come?

Why do you have to get your hedgehogs from china ?

 

[Casually Red]

Fair point, but it's inescapable that huge acerages of rainforest are being destroyed in the rush to provide more land for cattle grazing or arable production to provide grain for animal feed stuffs.
Not a problem, if your unconvinced not bothered RE; AGW.

Actually a massive problem these days is the planting of soy and the like for use in bio fuels .

 

[Casually Red]

"The stone age didn't end because of a shortage of stones".....@the Saudi oil minister, can't be bothered to link his name.

It didn't end in Saudi at all

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Earlier this year I attended a vigil at Tulip slaughterhouse in Manchester, which gasses pigs before slitting their throats. This slaughterhouse is compliant with the UK's animal welfare legislation and is 'RSPCA-assured higher welfare'.

I already knew before attending that I was unequivocally opposed to this pointless killing of intelligent, sensitive creatures merely for the fleeting gustatory pleasure of consumers, but the experience reaffirmed this with a visceral intensity and sense of urgency that I was not prepared for.

Seeing these individuals through the vents on the sides of the truck was a deeply harrowing experience. They looked so innocent, so vulnerable and so full of sadness and fear. I looked directly into the eyes of one of the pigs and he stared helplessly back. I didn't see an 'animal': I saw another individual just like me. Somebody who no more chose to be a pig than I chose to be human. An individual who felt emotions just like I do and wanted to be free from pain and suffering just like I do. Why should his basic interests be ignored or discounted simply because of factors over which he has no control over? What tyrannous thinking to believe so.



I was overwhelmed by the injustice I was witnessing. It was particularly horrible knowing the fate that was about to befall these individuals and being powerless to stop it. Every week on my facebook newsfeed I see live feed from these demos of pigs arriving at the slaughterhouses with lesions, tumours, cuts, bruises, prolapses, foaming at the mouth from overheating and other forms of horrific suffering.

That was not even the worst bit. Round the back of the slaughterhouse you could hear the sound of the pigs shrieking and screaming when they were forced into the gas chambers. It was chilling. That sound will be etched into my memory forever:



I ask: how can this be justified? How dare we treat our fellow earthlings with such callousness and brutality? How dare we be indifferent to their plight? How dare we be complicit in this massacre and think that our palate preferences and convenience negate any moral consideration of the agony that animals must endure? It's absolutely outrageous.

There are lots of problems with the world and the solutions to them are often very complex. But the solution to the suffering of "food" animals is astonishingly simple: boycott these products, and encourage as many people as possible to boycott them. If there is no demand there are no factory farms and no slaughterhouses. In the UK alone it would spare about 1 billion land animals a year being put through this ordeal.

I am angry that easily avoidable pain, suffering and oppression persists on such a huge scale. Just as I am angry about global economic inequality, racism and gender violence. If you are not angry about these things then I suggest you are not paying enough attention.

I am an angry vegan. Sue me.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I'm not saying don't change nor that only farmers can comment. There isn't much on the thread about viable alternatives or the plan to get there (which is similar to what you say). So the classic British small field and hedgerows ( not factory or large scale agri) are destruction of habitats? I don't think so (as you say). It's the loss of hedgerows and coppices that is doing that as well as drainage of wetlands and the huge depletion of riverine woodland which has happened over the last couple of centuries. I am talking about the UK as that's what I know about.

??? I'm not sure what you're saying there tbh. Viable alternatives to what? Why would a reduction in the consumption of meat and poultry lead to the loss of hedgerows and coppices etc? If that's already happening with the current high meat and dairy consumption why would it increase if less was consumed?

Not convinced by the majority of arguments on this thread from what come across as oh so self righteous vegans, which are not at all persuasive. What I do think is that just being harangued and told off by some of the posts on this thread is not an effective way to change behaviours.

??? Again that paragraph wasn't very clear but I think I get the giste. Some people already have their minds made up and are digging their heels in even in the face of fairly compelling arguments. People quite often don't like change. As Shopenheur said "all truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self evident". The people who already have their minds made up are quite often hostile to the idea and are not likely to change their behaviours anyway, and may already be a lost cause. There are growing numbers of people who are willing to look at the available evidence and make up their own minds, as can be seen from the increasing interest in the subject (in the west at least). I don't see it as my job to persuade reluctant individuals to convert. Not sure who you believe has been "harangued" and told off, but anyway if you're happy with what you're doing there's no reason for you to change.

 

[coley]

I've known people for whom eating is a chore, a couple of people I can think of, both of whom suffered from eating disorders at one point in their lives. They both said the same thing: Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to eat? Just didn't have to bother with it. All I could say was 'no way!' Another, who lost her sense of taste and smell in a head injury, also found eating hard work, had to force herself to do it.

It is a chore to some, I can think of half a dozen things I'd rather be doing than preparing food, but that's me, you like cooking? Crack on, me I'll be walking the dogs on the beach, with an apple and a handful of nuts in me 'poachers pocket'
Afor bed, a yarking glass of nondescript white wine and a lump of blue cheese.
In the morn? A banana and a slice of toast, midday meal, usually cereal, oats or shredded wheat or a sandwich.
Main meal? Whatever wor lass serves up, this evening? Aldis vegetarian spring rolls with new tetties and salad.
Like I've said, food is fuel, the foodie affectation of recent years? If it floats yer boat, crack on.

 

[coley]

Why do you have to get your hedgehogs from china ?

Just going with the current flow bonnie lad

 

[NoXion]

Nope, fuck doing this shit on a smartphone.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Earlier this year I attended a vigil at Tulip slaughterhouse in Manchester, which gasses pigs before slitting their throats. This slaughterhouse is compliant with the UK's animal welfare legislation and is 'RSPCA-assured higher welfare'.

I already knew before attending that I was unequivocally opposed to this pointless killing of intelligent, sensitive creatures merely for the fleeting gustatory pleasure of consumers, but the experience reaffirmed this with a visceral intensity and sense of urgency that I was not prepared for.

Seeing these individuals through the vents on the sides of the truck was a deeply harrowing experience. They looked so innocent, so vulnerable and so full of sadness and fear. I looked directly into the eyes of one of the pigs and he stared helplessly back. I didn't see an 'animal': I saw another individual just like me. Somebody who no more chose to be a pig than I chose to be human. An individual who felt emotions just like I do and wanted to be free from pain and suffering just like I do. Why should his basic interests be ignored or discounted simply because of factors over which he has no control over? What tyrannous thinking to believe so.

View attachment 112532

I was overwhelmed by the injustice I was witnessing. It was particularly horrible knowing the fate that was about to befall these individuals and being powerless to stop it. Every week on my facebook newsfeed I see live feed from these demos of pigs arriving at the slaughterhouses with lesions, tumours, cuts, bruises, prolapses, foaming at the mouth from overheating and other forms of horrific suffering.

That was not even the worst bit. Round the back of the slaughterhouse you could hear the sound of the pigs shrieking and screaming when they were forced into the gas chambers. It was chilling. That sound will be etched into my memory forever:



I ask: how can this be justified? How dare we treat our fellow earthlings with such callousness and brutality? How dare we be indifferent to their plight? How dare we be complicit in this massacre and think that our palate preferences and convenience negate any moral consideration of the agony that animals must endure? It's absolutely outrageous.

There are lots of problems with the world and the solutions to them are often very complex. But the solution to the suffering of "food" animals is astonishingly simple: boycott these products, and encourage as many people as possible to boycott them. If there is no demand there are no factory farms and no slaughterhouses. In the UK alone it would spare about 1 billion land animals being put through this ordeal.

I am angry that easily avoidable pain, suffering and oppression persists on such a huge scale. Just as I am angry about global economic inequality, racism and gender violence. If you are not angry about these things then I suggest you are not paying enough attention.

I am an angry vegan. Sue me.

Pigs are lesser beings and therefore apparently shouldn't expect the same level of care and respect that us wonderful humans deserve. We can do whatever we want with them because we be top of the food chain.

Oh yeah...and their meat tastes really sweet, and that's a good justification.

 

[coley]

Actually a massive problem these days is the planting of soy and the like for use in bio fuels .

Soy is usually for animal and/or human consumption, mebbes your thinking of corn being used for ethanol production?

 

[coley]

It didn't end in Saudi at all

Clever, you still occasionally surprise me, chip off the auld block

 

[PaoloSanchez]

A slight rise in the number of folks professing veganism is not the same thing as it becoming mainstream. Nobody I know in real life as opposed to Urban is vegetarian, let alone vegan. Chicken shops and similar establishments continue to do brisk business in my town.

I believe it's a bit more than "slight". I suppose one can quibble over what constitutes "mainstream", but I don't think supermarkets would bother selling vegan products to all those non existent customers, yet they all now do. 30 years ago I would have had to go to specialist independent wholefood stores. But now they're all at it. Tescos, Sainsbury's, Asda, Morrisons, Waitrose, M&S. I don't think they'd be doing that for only a "slight" rise. Supply follows demand.

"Veganism no longer feels like a niche choice: plant-based living is becoming more visible. You can see this growth on social media, but also on the high street too, with more shops and restaurant catering to a growing vegan audience. Here’s our pick of 10 key stats that prove veganism is only set to get bigger."

10 Inspiring Stats That Prove Veganism Is Going Mainstream

Your anecdote that nobody you know is even vegetarian isn't that useful tbh. Sample size issues. The growth in interest and uptake is there regardless of whether you can see it or not. China has almost as many vegetarians as the whole of the UK population, and that's not seen as a particularly vegetarian friendly country.

 

[NoXion]

I believe it's a bit more than "slight". I suppose one can quibble over what constitutes "mainstream", but I don't think supermarkets would be bother selling vegan products to all those non existent customers, yet they all now do. 30 years ago I would have had to go to specialist independent wholefood stores. But now they're all at it. Tescos, Sainsbury's, Asda, Morrisons, Waitrose, M&S. I don't think they'd be doing that for only a "slight" rise. Supply follows demand.

"Veganism no longer feels like a niche choice: plant-based living is becoming more visible. You can see this growth on social media, but also on the high street too, with more shops and restaurant catering to a growing vegan audience. Here’s our pick of 10 key stats that prove veganism is only set to get bigger."

10 Inspiring Stats That Prove Veganism Is Going Mainstream

Your anecdote that nobody you know is even vegetarian isn't that useful tbh. Sample size issues. The growth in interest and uptake is there regardless of whether you can see it or not. China has almost as many vegetarians as the whole of the UK population, and that's not seen as a particularly vegetarian friendly country.

Supermarkets also cater to those following Halal. Doesn't mean Halal is mainstream in the UK.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Supermarkets also cater to those following Halal. Doesn't mean Halal is mainstream in the UK.

What is your definition of mainstream?

 

[Casually Red]

I keep skim reading the thread title as "Do Angry Vegans Turn You On?" and it conjures some really quite disturbing imagery...

Feel free to add this to your mental bank ..not sure if it counts as NSFW but it's definitely as disturbing as it is offensive .

 

[NoXion]

What is your definition of mainstream?

Most people do it.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Most people do it.

Well clearly most people don't "do it", but then that is not the definition that I would use.
Easily accessible and visible to a large chunk of the population. More people know about it and people have easy access to vegan food products, and the number of establishments offering vegan products and the supermarket shelf space is growing from being almost non existent when I started.