Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[Casually Red]

ps, as if to illustrate the point, this video gets a "Content Warning". Why should natural meat eaters need a content warning?

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We all naturally take a dump . Doesn't mean we want to look at people doing it .

We aren't all Tory mps/ Germans .

 

[ViolentPanda]

meat eater = carnivore (alson now carnist)
eating of meat = carnism

what's the big issue with that?
obviously people who eat meat don't seem to like it, tough

Calling humans that eat meat "carnivores" is just loaded name-calling. Very few humans only eat meat (despite what Paleo twats will claim), we mostly eat omnivorously, so "carnism" too is a bag of loaded arse.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Few are extremely selective, the vast majority will eat factory farmed meat without a second thought

True enough. Otherwise such meat wouldn't exist. I think it is true to say that a lot of people are uneasy about factory farming but not sufficiently for them to go for more expensive options. It's also very true that a lot of meat is badly mislabelled - 'outdoor bred' pork is an example: sounds nice, but all it means is that the pig was born outside then promptly taken inside for the rest of its life.

That's why we need more than just campaigns aimed at individual consumers to change things. We need concerted collective campaigns aimed at system change. We have seen small victories wrt things like veal crates and the extension of free-range eggs. Even McDonalds now has higher-welfare pork here in the UK at least. I do think animal farming can be reformed. I'm not sure whether those who campaign for it to be ended help or hinder that process.

 

[ViolentPanda]

i know you're a wind up merchant but that is simply not true

carnist fragility is the fragileness of the likes of you bees, frank and others who go crazy when their "normality" is challenged. And the grief vegis and vegans get just for having a different diet and ethical choices

To be fair though, you go bonkers whenever your dietary orthodoxy is challenged.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Many are extremely selective, in fact most that I know. An entire sub-industry relies on it. However, the "vast majority" simply can't afford to be, and their social conditioning has meant that they are thoroughly omnivorous. Are you going to tell a struggling mum that her kids shouldn't eat cheap meat (or meat at all)?

Another reason why this needs to be tackled primarily at the collective level. Telling people who are struggling financially that the factory-farming business is their fault and their responsibility is absurd. Tbh the continued success of McDonald's since switching to farm-assured pork is an example of how 'down-market' food providers can change their ways and stay in business. It is rather ironic for me that their meat is now more ethically produced than the meat you'll get in the local take-away next door.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i know you're a wind up merchant but that is simply not true

carnist fragility is the fragileness of the likes of you bees, frank and others who go crazy when their "normality" is challenged. And the grief vegis and vegans get just for having a different diet and ethical choices

Veggies and vegans very rarely get grief on here for their choices. Haven't seen a single piece of grief for them on this thread, although I may have missed it. Any grief is almost entirely directed at meat-eaters, most of it coming from you.

 

[Spymaster]

Veggies and vegans very rarely get grief on here for their choices. Haven't seen a single piece of grief for them on this thread, although I may have missed it. Any grief is almost entirely directed at meat-eaters, most of it coming from you.

Isn't it just???

He's got an astonishing take on how these things play out here!

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Most meat comes from factory farms, I'd be very surprised if anybody with doubts about eating meat visited an industrial-scale pig or chicken farm and left more likely to eat meat than before. As for slaughterhouses, just living within earshot of one was enough to put a lot of people I know off eating pork.

Indeed, I worked on a farm when I left school and that laid the foundation for me going vegan some 20 yrs ago. Some of the things I saw and did were pretty horrific really. I also went to farming college and we had to wring a chicken's neck then cook and eat it, which to be honest, I did do without many qualms at the time.

We also visited a slaughterhouse, getting an insiders insight most people will probably never see, happily for them.Some of the things I saw stayed with me for years, honestly. When I finally went vegan, I was living in a small bumpkin town in north warwickshire, it caused me loads of trouble with the natives, especially with the local hunt, who are a bunch of violent wankers even by hunters low standards (tbf I was a known 'anti' at that point). Anyway, nowadays, I reckon veganism is quite easy, back then it was all plamil milk and sos-mix (I eat a lot of fake meat type food.)

I have never been to a slaughterhouse and have no desire to do so, and I very much doubt that a visit to one would be persuasive to me and that I'd suddenly start eating dead animals. Those two posts reminded of an acquaintance that we met while on holiday in Spain. She owned a plot of land in a town on the outskirts of Malaga from where she ran an animal sanctuary for the numerous poorly treated dogs, cats, horses and donkeys. However an abattoir was built on a neighbouring plot and her animals used to go crazy/scared at the slaughtering times. Even though she couldn't hear anything herself, the animals in her care somehow appeared to be reacting to the mass killings taking place nearby.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

This has gone down a different path now. Few meat eaters would condone many industrial meat production practices. Many are extremely selective about the meat they purchase for those very reasons. But the vegan proposal goes way further than that, doesn't it?

I don't think it is a "different path" at all. The sheer numbers involved gives a good indication of where the priorities of the majority of meat eaters lies, and they only pay lip service to the concept of animal welfare. Out of sight out of mind I suppose, as long as the steak or the bacon is tasty, eh? I'm sure that there are some meat eaters who are selective about where their meat comes from, but they are a tiny minority. The majority don't appear to give that much of a damn.

Vegans do not condone the killing of any animals be it in industrial scale killing factories where the vast majority of the meat comes from, or the "cuddle them before you kill them" lovey dovey grass fed free range organic "humanely slaughtered" meat.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Vegans do not condone the killing of any animals be it in industrial scale killing factories where the vast majority of the meat comes from, or the "cuddle them before you kill them" lovey dovey grass fed free range organic "humanely slaughtered" meat.

And herein lies the problem and the reason why we always end up talking past one another on these threads. I have big problems with the former and no problems with the latter. You find that hard to accept and seem unwilling to make common cause with people like me in order to improve farming practices.

But you do your cause no favours when you fall back on dodgy pseudo-scientific claims against the eating of meat. Those claims are so flimsy that they fall apart under their own weight, and they also contain some pretty nasty unexamined assumptions.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

This has gone down a different path now. Few meat eaters would condone many industrial meat production practices. Many are extremely selective about the meat they purchase for those very reasons. But the vegan proposal goes way further than that, doesn't it?

Whether or not flesh and secretion consumers "condone" the systematic torture and abuse that gets dead animals and their byproducts on to their plates is irrelevant - they create the demand for it by buying them.

I also call bullshit on the 'Many are extremely selective about the meat they purchase'. Most, despite their pretensions, are happy to chow down on Macdonald's happy meals, Nando's chicken and Sainsbury's mincemeat without a second thought about it. So-called "humane" flesh and secretion products are the almost exclusive preserve of a tiny handful of middle class foodies, and even then their purchase is highly selective.

In any event, even in the best conditions there are still horrific abuses (the repeated forced impregnation of 'dairy' cows and the abduction of their babies shortly after birth is inherently cruel and violent for example) and 99.99% of the animals (whether free range, organic, grass fed) end up in the same industrial slaughterhouse hellholes and die terrifying deaths.

If people care about animals at all, being vegan is the absolute bare minimum that they can do.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'flesh and secretion products'

There seems to be an underlying assumption in this kind of language (which is both patronising and arrogant) that meat-eaters and milk-drinkers must be in some kind of denial about what it is that they are doing.

 

[Spymaster]

I don't think it is a "different path" at all. The sheer numbers involved gives a good indication of where the priorities of the majority of meat eaters lies, and they only pay lip service to the concept of animal welfare. Out of sight out of mind I suppose, as long as the steak or the bacon is tasty, eh? I'm sure that there are some meat eaters who are selective about where their meat comes from, but they are a tiny minority. The majority don't appear to give that much of a damn.

Vegans do not condone the killing of any animals be it in industrial scale killing factories where the vast majority of the meat comes from, or the "cuddle them before you kill them" lovey dovey grass fed free range organic "humanely slaughtered" meat.

Aaaaand, around we go.

There is nothing wrong with killing animals for food. It's not necessarily bad as you suggested last night. I strongly believe that, so we're at an impasse. If those animals can be treated as humanely as possible, great. Unfortunately that's not possible to do economically, all the time, so resources should be spent in providing affordable high welfare meat.

Don't know what else to say really.

 

[Casually Red]

If we aren't going to eat these animals then we will just have to kill most of them . A mass cull of epic proportions . Because this livestock simply isn't going to get fed otherwise . Its the cash from the meat and milk that pays for the grain they eat. The farmers couldn't afford to have all these expensive pet animals just sitting about the place . Gambolling willy nilly . And I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to adopt a Fresian bullock and take it back to your bedsit .

I'll nominate the vegans as first in line in the dairy herd einsatzgruppen .

 

[xenon]

Another reason why this needs to be tackled primarily at the collective level. Telling people who are struggling financially that the factory-farming business is their fault and their responsibility is absurd. Tbh the continued success of McDonald's since switching to farm-assured pork is an example of how 'down-market' food providers can change their ways and stay in business. It is rather ironic for me that their meat is now more ethically produced than the meat you'll get in the local take-away next door.

I didn't even know McDonald's sold pork products.

I prefer a kebab anyway.

 

[Spymaster]

'flesh and secretion products'

There seems to be an underlying assumption in this kind of language (which is both patronising and arrogant) that meat-eaters and milk-drinkers must be in some kind of denial about what it is that they are doing.

It's a recent thing for Jeff too.

We've lost him to the twat-side

 

[Spymaster]

I didn't even know McDonald's sold pork products.

Bacon

 

[PaoloSanchez]

This rubbish about cooking is dangerous nonsense. We have evolved alongside our ability to cook and otherwise break down the chemicals in our foods to such an extent that a human eating a wholly raw diet (no cooking, pickling, curing or marinading) will very quickly become ill. We need to begin the digestion process for at least some of our diet before the food enters our bodies. We have found various methods of doing this, and due to using these methods, we have over time evolved to depend on them, as is the way with evolution.

Attacking the eating of a foodstuff because we have to cook it before we can eat it is unscientific twaddle.

That is your opinion, and I disagree.

I'm not going to watch your video because everything you say about it suggests that it is complete and utter bullshit. And offensive bullshit at that.

Well you don't come across as being particularly open minded so your refusal to watch is nut much of a surprise and is not much of an impediment to me. Anybody that is interested can watch it for themselves and draw their own conclusions or critique the bits they disagree with. That's how civilised sensible debates work. You appear to prefer the alternative of thowing your toys out of the pram and claiming to be deeply offended because your preferred eating style is under scrutiny. Wow.

 

[Casually Red]

It's a recent thing for Jeff too.

We've lost him to the twat-side

Mother nature has a way of balancing this out .

My mates fiancée was a vegan since her teens but since she moved in with him she's become a pretty rabid carnivore . Making up for lost time . Wouldn't surprise me if she went on the Atkins diet .

 

[xenon]

Bacon

Oh yeah, never had one of those McMuffin things.

I just had some chicken sausages, red onion and mustard in pitter bread for lunch. Don't know who will need to know that but there you are. back to work, another Couple of pages by teatime.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That is your opinion, and I disagree.

No, it's not a question of opinion. As another poster used to be fond of saying, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

 

[xenon]

That is your opinion, and I disagree.

Well you don't come across as being particularly open minded so your refusal to watch is nut much of a surprise and is not much of an impediment to me. Anybody that is interested can watch it for themselves and draw their own conclusions or critique the bits they disagree with. That's how civilised sensible debates work. You appear to prefer the alternative of thowing your toys out of the pram and claiming to be deeply offended because your preferred eating style is under scrutiny. Wow.

You have been posting some bright nonsense here. People don't cook meat because they wish to hide from what it is. Sausages, as mentioned, are a convenient shape and packaged form of various food stuffs. You of course get good and bad ones. Chips are disguising the essential nature of potatoes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You appear to prefer the alternative of thowing your toys out of the pram and claiming to be deeply offended because your preferred eating style is under scrutiny. Wow.

As for this, it is also utter nonsense. You don't get the offensive nature of your language about civilisation and savages nor the implications your nonsense about 'natural meat-eaters' have for a wide variety of human cultures. It's nothing whatever to do with my preferred eating style.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

And herein lies the problem and the reason why we always end up talking past one another on these threads. I have big problems with the former and no problems with the latter. You find that hard to accept and seem unwilling to make common cause with people like me in order to improve farming practices.

Make common cause? What are you on about. If you think that some killing is ok, that is your opinion. I disagree and feel it is unnecessary for the majority of civilised humanity. You would prefer if if I didn't express my opinion that I disagree with so called "humane slaughter" and keep quiet. I'm not prepared to do that just to protect your sensitivities. In my opinion they are both wrong, one being perhaps slightly less wrong than the other. What would you say to those who believe that factory farming and industrial scale production is perfectly ok?

But you do your cause no favours when you fall back on dodgy pseudo-scientific claims against the eating of meat. Those claims are so flimsy that they fall apart under their own weight, and they also contain some pretty nasty unexamined assumptions.

As I've said a number of times already, I am not on any kind of mission to convert or persuade anybody. I'll express my opinion and you can take it or leave it.

 

[ddraig]

the arrogance from lbj and others is astounding isn't it
either shut up or say something palatable for me and my choices

 

[bimble]

Mother nature has a way of balancing this out .

My mates fiancée was a vegan since her teens but since she moved in with him she's become a pretty rabid carnivore . Making up for lost time . Wouldn't surprise me if she went on the Atkins diet .

Dunno about Mother Nature but yeah, my sister's partner was brought up vegan and stuck with it till he was 20 or something, now a massive carcass cruncher.

 

[Casually Red]

Dunno about Mother Nature but yeah, my sister's partner was brought up vegan and stuck with it till he was 20 or something, now a massive carcass cruncher.

Yess...2-1 !!

 

[Spymaster]

Mother nature has a way of balancing this out .

My mates fiancée was a vegan since her teens but since she moved in with him she's become a pretty rabid carnivore . Making up for lost time . Wouldn't surprise me if she went on the Atkins diet .

Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall is doing some good work around this too, liberating vegans whose lifestyles were imposed on them by parents, and introducing them to high welfare meat diets.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yess...2-1 !!

My mate Anna makes 3, after 30 years of pastyness she's now noming the steaks.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

No, it's not a question of opinion. As another poster used to be fond of saying, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

What you presented wasn't particularly factual, more like cherry picked and incomplete. Your claim that "a human eating a wholly raw diet will quickly become ill". Really? Is that what you call a "fact"? lol