Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[PaoloSanchez]

Well I think this is what ddraig was driving at but it is of course, total nonsense. If you genuinely think that meat eaters are generally in any way uncomfortable about meat-eating, you're deluded. Of course, given the choice, most would prefer to choose higher welfare, free range, organic, etc., but for many the cost is prohibitive so that's where it ends.

Deluded eh? Wow. Well we'll have to disagree on what you described as "total nonsense". I genuinely do think that many carnists do feel at least a bit uncomfortable with how their choice of food gets on to their plates, and I believe that there's plenty of evidence to support that. This is one of the reasons that so much of the meat products don't look anything like the animal from which they came and so much effort goes into disguising the origins, changing the names, hiding the conditions that they are kept in and of course not many people want to see how their food is killed. This is why you won't find any school trips to abattoirs. Wouldn't want those pesky kids going all soft and veganised, eh? For the most part in the civilised west, people are very much shielded from the brutal reality of where their meat comes from, and I'm willing to bet that most people wouldn't want to see it. A fair number of those that do eventually get a glimpse of the reality are affected by it and will at least think more about what they eat. Of course there are hard core meat munchers who will dig their heels in. That's their prerogative I suppose. It won't stop me from expressing my opinion.

All that you've described as the "backlash and moaning" re carnism is just piss-taking and laughing at the silliness of it, not some angry reaction to a deadly chink you've exposed in their moral armour!

Ironically, the use of the word carnism is also a bit of a piss take which some of the meat munchers on this thread appear to have taken offence to. Looks like some folks can dish it out but aren't so good at taking it.

 

[veganomics]

Meanwhile Air India goes veggie only on domestic flights, you are banned from cooking meat in lots of rental properties, meat providers are being strung up at an alarming rate, laws are being passed against cow slaughter for alsorts including the leather trade.Even very good and harmless ideas like vegetarianism can turn vile when zealots appear on the scene.I believe Bhutan is a bit rough on meat eaters too.

As we're not in India I'm not sure how much of that is relevant to this discussion. Again there appears to be a lot of scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for reasons not to be vegetarian or vegan, "those Indians and Butanese folks treat meat eaters real bad and for that reason, I'm going to continue to eat meat and teach those vegans a lesson".

I honestly think the best response by a meat muncher on this thread was this...

My personal arguments for eating meat:

1 - I enjoy it
2 - That's it

No beating around the bush scratching around looking for justifications and excuses. Straight to the point. Even though I totally disagree with that sentiment, I can respect that a lot more than people getting offended by the word "carnism" and claiming it is some kind of slur with an agenda behind it ffs.

 

[peterkro]

As we're not in India I'm not sure how much of that is relevant to this discussion. Again there appears to be a lot of scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for reasons not to be vegetarian or vegan, "those Indians and Butanese folks treat meat eaters real bad and for that reason, I'm going to continue to eat meat and teach those vegans a lesson".

Not an Internationalist then? it's only relevant if it's localised to Britain.By the way I've been vegetarian for fifty years you dick.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As we're not in India I'm not sure how much of that is relevant to this discussion. Again there appears to be a lot of scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for reasons not to be vegetarian or vegan, "those Indians and Butanese folks treat meat eaters real bad and for that reason, I'm going to continue to eat meat and teach those vegans a lesson".

I honestly think the best response by a meat muncher on this thread was this...

No beating around the bush scratching around looking for justifications and excuses. Straight to the point. Even though I totally disagree with that sentiment, I can respect that a lot more than people getting offended by the word "carnism" and claiming it is some kind of slur with an agenda behind it ffs.

You're really rather determined to judge, aren't you?

 

[Spymaster]

I genuinely do think that many carnists do feel at least a bit uncomfortable with out their choice of food gets on to their plates, and I believe that there's plenty of evidence to support that. This is one of the reasons that so much of the meat products don't look anything like the animal from which they came and so much effort goes into disguising the origins, changing the names, hiding the conditions that they are kept in and of course not many people want to see how their food is killed. This is why you won't find any school trips to abattoirs. Wouldn't want those pesky kids going all soft and veganised, eh?

Yeah, this old chestnut. There's a world of difference between feeling guilty about eating meat and not wanting to support intensive production methods. We contract-out many jobs that we find distasteful or that are beyond our capabilities, including the slaughtering and butchering of animals, and you don't find school trips to abattoirs for the same reason they don't go to operating theatres. I'm not wedded to the idea that some people wouldn't be turned off, at least temporarily, if they saw how meat got to the table though, so we probably don't have much to argue about here. Your read on the carnist thing though, is laughable, but you are very welcome to express your opinion.

 

[veganomics]

Not an Internationalist then? it's only relevant if it's localised to Britain.

No because there is a religious context behind the reactions in India and Bhutan which is beyond the scope of this discussion imo. It is not just simply a matter of vegetarians being arseholes. The cow is seen as sacred in India and are treated with reverence. You can get lynched for knocking down a cow wandering into the road with your car. Not that I condone such behaviour, and in fact I consider that to be a bit backward, but that is the context behind some of the reactions and laws in those countries.

By the way I've been vegetarian for fifty years you dick.

Good for you, although it would appear that vegetarianism isn't a cure for dishing out unprovoked genuine slurs.

Have a nice day sir.

 

[mojo pixy]

why carnist, not meatarian? or vegist? what's up with the need to use strange words anyway? Nobody really said why meat-eater isn't good enough.

Maybe using correct labels is vital, otherwise there's no way to tell who to like and dislike.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, this old chestnut. There's a world of difference between feeling guilty about eating meat and not wanting to support intensive production methods. We contract-out many jobs that we find distasteful or that are beyond our capabilities, including the slaughtering and butchering of animals, and you don't find school trips to abattoirs for the same reason they don't go to operating theatres. I'm not wedded to the idea that some people wouldn't be turned off, at least temporarily, if they saw how meat got to the table though, so we probably don't have much to argue about here. Your read on the carnist thing though, is laughable, but you are very welcome to express your opinion.

tbh in our particular society most of us are isolated from many processes that are/were everyday in many others. Death in all its forms is one of those. Thing is, back when most people had to kill and prepare their own meat, there were probably fewer veggies than there are now. It's a very silly argument - the very isolation is itself an important part of what makes people squeamish about things like killing animals.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It is ironic when ddraig shrieks about the likes of me and spymaster, the 'usual suspects' on these threads. Yeah, meat-eaters who care about and engage in issues to do with animal welfare. That's basically what you mean when you say that, but you don't quite realise it.

 

[editor]

tbh in our particular society most of us are isolated from many processes that are/were everyday in many others. Death in all its forms is one of those. Thing is, back when most people had to kill and prepare their own meat, there were probably fewer veggies than there are now. It's a very silly argument - the very isolation is itself an important part of what makes people squeamish about things like killing animals.

Well, that and changing times, a general greater understanding of animal intelligence and the massively changing farming practices from traditional to industrial.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Yeah, this old chestnut. There's a world of difference between feeling guilty about eating meat and not wanting to support intensive production methods.

We'll have to disagree on that on too. I think they are in the same ball park. Of course most people would agree that looking after the animals before you kill them is "better" than treating them badly and in poor conditions before killing them. My contention is that killing them is still pretty bad and mostly unnecessary in the modern world. Surely it would be even better to not kill them at all, no? I think if you were to ask the animals involved if they'd like to be killed they'd probably say a big fat NO. (if they could speak)

We contract-out many jobs that we find distasteful or that are beyond our capabilities, including the slaughtering and butchering of animals, and you don't find school trips to abattoirs for the same reason they don't go to operating theatres.

I mostly disagree with the comparison of trips to operating theatres with trips to abattoirs, although the bit I think has a ring of truth to it is the sight of blood and gory bits which many people don't like the sight of. I wouldn't have thought that genuine meat eaters would be so squeamish.
Yes we do contract out jobs that most people can't do, however the amount of hiding and shielding from public view that meat production gets is on another level entirely.

Your read on the carnist thing though, is laughable, but you are very welcome to express your opinion.

I think it's more laughable that the use of the word was even raised as an issue in the first place. Each to their own eh?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well, that and changing times and massively changing farming practices from traditional to industrial.

Yep. that's an integral part of the process of isolation from direct contact with the process, and yes, the processes themselves have become far more horrific in many cases, although you will find better practices in slaughterhouses in many respects now than you would have found 100 years ago. Let's not romanticise the past here.

 

[editor]

Yep. that's an integral part of the process of isolation from direct contact with the process, and yes, the processes themselves have become far more horrific in many cases, although you will find better practices in slaughterhouses in many respects now than you would have found 100 years ago. Let's not romanticise the past here.

Oh come on: things were grim in the past but the industrial mechanisation of some aspects of the meat industry now is horrendous. Some creatures are turned into mutated freaks, stuffed full of a mix of hormones and grown in inhumane farming practises. Some never even get to see the light of the sun or go outside.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh come on: things were grim in the past but the industrial mechanisation of some aspects of the meat industry now is horrendous. Some creatures are turned into mutated freaks, stuffed full of a mix of hormones and grown in inhumane farming practises. Some never even get to see the light of the sun or go outside.

I agree entirely. I'm not defending industrialised animal farming here at all. The question then becomes how do you change that.

But the narrow emotive point about abattoirs doesn't really stand up. Abattoirs have always been horrible places.

 

[Spymaster]

My contention is that killing them is still pretty bad ...

Why though? I'd agree that hurting or torturing them is bad, but why is killing (let's assume for arguments sake that this could be done painlessly) and eating them bad?

 

[ddraig]

It is ironic when ddraig shrieks about the likes of me and spymaster, the 'usual suspects' on these threads. Yeah, meat-eaters who care about and engage in issues to do with animal welfare. That's basically what you mean when you say that, but you don't quite realise it.

Just a little not a lot! It still dies for your tastbuds however you try and justify it, however many twists and turns and excuses you make

Ironic indeed
Engage indeed
Tedious twerp

 

[Spymaster]

It still dies for your tastbuds ...

What's wrong with that?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It still dies for your tastbuds

I know. And I'm alright with that. You can't see how I could possibly be alright with it. So you shriek. That's all you ever do on these threads. I read every post you make on the subject in a shrill shrieking voice.

 

[ddraig]

I know. And I'm alright with that. You can't see how I could possibly be alright with it. So you shriek. That's all you ever do on these threads. I read every post you make on the subject in a shrill shrieking voice.

I'm not shrieking, you are whining and projecting your views with a conceited and false authority like you do on many topics here

I can see how you can be alright with it actually, why wouldn't I? You're properly full of yourself and don't like to be questioned.
I'm quite aware many people don't give a shit about the lives of animals

 

[PaoloSanchez]

tbh in our particular society most of us are isolated from many processes that are/were everyday in many others. Death in all its forms is one of those. Thing is, back when most people had to kill and prepare their own meat, there were probably fewer veggies than there are now. It's a very silly argument - the very isolation is itself an important part of what makes people squeamish about things like killing animals.

I think there's an element of truth to this and a bit of conditioning is involved. People can get accustomed to seeing certain things and become immune. In the west it is true that we are mostly shielded from death blood and gore and are not used to seeing it, however I think that is part of our true evolved nature to be repulsed by those things. This is why we respond negatively to the sites of how animals might be treated in less developed (less evolved?) countries, or we recoil at the treatment of dogs in the Yulin dog meat festival. In my opinion it's more than just "isolation", I think it's an inherent part of our evolved "humane" nature.

This reminds me of a talk that I saw a few years ago by Dr Milton Mills called "Meat Eating and the Biology of Disgust".



tl;dr "Although people often eat meat, WE REALLY DON'T LIKE IT, and that's why we are compelled to change it's form, taste, and texture to make it acceptable and palatable".

imo there's more than just a ring of truth to that.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm reminded that Orwell once did a list of lefty cranks (not including his own shabby genteel self, funnily enough) that included vegetarians. It stood out to me as anachronistic for today because vegetarianism is no longer seen as some freakish aberration or even a moral decision. E.G I know a lad who grew up veggie cos his parents were, went for the burgers for a few years then went back to veggie when he started training for the navy. It interests me in light of what was mentioned earlier about how growing up as a meat eater, well that then requires a more conscious rejection of dead flesh- whereas the person I write about had no moral issues at all with eating meat, just decided it was not in line with his health and exercise regime so dropped it like it was no thang.

 

[mojo pixy]

Mostly people cook meat because it's easier to digest that way, and it lasts longer / is easier to store. There are issues of taste too, no doubt. Trying to hide or disguise its provenance? That's easy to say but I'd be surprised it it figures large in Why People Mostly Eat Cooked Meat. If it is a hidden motive then it's really well hidden.

 

[Spymaster]

tl;dr "Although people often eat meat, WE REALLY DON'T LIKE IT, and that's why we are compelled to change it's form, taste, and texture to make it acceptable and palatable".

imo there's more than just a ring of truth to that.

I'll watch the vid tomorrow because someone's sleeping next to me now, but you mentioned this before.

Give some examples of form, taste, and texture, of meat being changed.

 

[ddraig]

Tenderised
Smoked
Nuggets
Burgers
Loads more

 

[Spymaster]

Tenderised
Smoked
Nuggets
Burgers
Loads more

None of those are because we don't like the meat though. They're methods of enhancing flavours, making it more convenient to eat, or broadening variety.

 

[ddraig]

That's not what you fucking asked tho is it!?!
I give up, again

 

[Yossarian]

Whenever the word "vegan" come up some people automatically react as if somebody was threatening to take away their freedom to eat meat.

I haven' t met any vegans on a big mission to convert people - they generally seem to have the attitude that with 7 billion people in the world, there's not that much point in taking a big interest in another individual's diet. Seems like the only converting some of them do comes naturally as a result of them getting into their 40s and looking a lot better than most people their age.

 

[Spymaster]

That's not what you fucking asked tho is it!?!

Why do you think I asked?

But I'll make it easier, just for you. Can you give some examples of the form, texture, or taste, of meat being changed, that would support the assertion that it's done because "WE REALLY DON'T LIKE [meat}"?

 

[veganomics]

This reminds me of a talk that I saw a few years ago by Dr Milton Mills called "Meat Eating and the Biology of Disgust".



tl;dr "Although people often eat meat, WE REALLY DON'T LIKE IT, and that's why we are compelled to change it's form, taste, and texture to make it acceptable and palatable".

imo there's more than just a ring of truth to that.

I've seen that video and found it really interesting. He did a similar one called something like "Are Humans designed to eat meat" which is also very good. ( I assume you might have already watched it).

 

[ddraig]

Why do you think I asked?

But I'll make it easier, just for you. Can you give some examples of the form, texture, or taste, of meat being changed, that would support the assertion that it's done because "WE REALLY DON'T LIKE [meat}"?

Firstly I didn't claim or post that
Secondly I was answering your questions about form, shape and texture being changed
That is all