Democracy: crap/not crap

[nardy]

Hitler: democratically elected, but few would disagree that his early assassination would have benefited mankind.

Brexit: 55% voted in favour, but some would attempt to overturn this majority decision.

Politics: UK electors always vote against anything to the left of Blair, but there is an arguably more intelligent minority to the left of both Blair and Corbyn.

Question: should the will of the majority (the tyranny of the majority?) always be allowed, or can undemocratic means be employed to foist what are arguably better (but minority) solutions on the general populace?

This question has been bugging me for ages.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Who gets to decide which are the "better" solutions?

 

[Pickman's model]

Hitler: democratically elected, but few would disagree that his early assassination would have benefited mankind.

So when was this democratic election? Perhaps you could run through the second and third order likely effects of this assassination.

Brexit: 55% voted in favour, but some would attempt to overturn this majority decision.

It wasn't 55%

Politics: UK electors always vote against anything to the left of Blair, but there is an arguably more intelligent minority to the left of both Blair and Corbyn.

Wilson and heath were certainly to the left of Blair.

Question: should the will of the majority (the tyranny of the majority?) always be allowed, or can undemocratic means be employed to foist what are arguably better (but minority) solutions on the general populace?

This question has been bugging me for ages.

What proportion of the eligible electorate voted for the tory party in 2015?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hitler: democratically elected, but few would disagree that his early assassination would have benefited mankind.

Brexit: 55% voted in favour, but some would attempt to overturn this majority decision.

Politics: UK electors always vote against anything to the left of Blair, but there is an arguably more intelligent minority to the left of both Blair and Corbyn.

Question: should the will of the majority (the tyranny of the majority?) always be allowed, or can undemocratic means be employed to foist what are arguably better (but minority) solutions on the general populace?

This question has been bugging me for ages.

Sweet buggering ahistorical fuck!!!

Hitler wasn't democratically-elected. The NSDAP got 32.6% of th vote - NOT a majority. Von Hindenburg offered Hitler the chancellorship in the hope of controlling Hitler within a coalition while also denying von Papen power.

Brexit. 52% in favour.

Get your history right before sounding off.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wilson and heath were certainly to the left of Blair.

A syphilitic mongoose with a Nazi fetish would certainly be to the left of Blair.

 

[likesfish]

Obviously an Enlightened tryant is the best method of getting shit done.
Unfortunatly philospher kings are rather in short supply so until we build super Ai's we are stuck with humans and the rather flawed ones who can crawl to the top of the shit
Pile thats politics.
Leading a Nation is stressful as hell so limiting terms helps Maggie had to be pushed leaving someone in power long term does nothing to improve things.

Democracy more or less works the chinese system may add a bit of technocracy you have to have some experience of running things before you can even try for the big job.
Its downside is corruption and people don't even belive they have a say.

 

[nardy]

According to some commentators, Hitler was democratically elected ...
Was Hitler democratically elected? | Die Beste Aller Zeiten

And yes, Brexit was 52% in favour, not 55% as I stated.

Both points don't affect the question "Democracy: crap/not crap".

 

[pogofish]

The thing to me is that democracy only tends to work when all parties are committed to working within a democratic framework - The change to me is that fundamentally non-democratic interests have used democracy to gain power but have little care for it from then-on.

 

[Pickman's model]

According to some commentators, Hitler was democratically elected ...
Was Hitler democratically elected? | Die Beste Aller Zeiten

And yes, Brexit was 52% in favour, not 55% as I stated.

Both points don't affect the question "Democracy: crap/not crap".

Perhaps you might define democracy for us. What do *you* think it consists of? Even if Hitler had been democratically elected, do you believe he was (of whatever sort) a democrat?

 

[SpookyFrank]

So when was this democratic election? Perhaps you could run through the second and third order likely effects of this assassination.It wasn't 55%Wilson and heath were certainly to the left of Blair.What proportion of the eligible electorate voted for the tory party in 2015?

In the region of 25%, possibly sightly less. Any system which allows a party endorsed by a quarter of the population to control the entire government is clearly not democratic.

 

[Pickman's model]

In the region of 25%, possibly sightly less. Any system which allows a party endorsed by a quarter of the population to control the entire government is clearly not democratic.

We clearly don't live in a democracy

 

[Pickman's model]

In the region of 25%, possibly sightly less. Any system which allows a party endorsed by a quarter of the population to control the entire government is clearly not democratic.

But we clearly don't live in a democracy

 

[chilango]

Hitler: democratically elected, but few would disagree that his early assassination would have benefited mankind.

Brexit: 55% voted in favour, but some would attempt to overturn this majority decision.

Politics: UK electors always vote against anything to the left of Blair, but there is an arguably more intelligent minority to the left of both Blair and Corbyn.

Question: should the will of the majority (the tyranny of the majority?) always be allowed, or can undemocratic means be employed to foist what are arguably better (but minority) solutions on the general populace?

This question has been bugging me for ages.

Dictatorship of the proletariat ftw. Next question?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Some things about the UK parliamentary system which make it fundamentally undemocratic:

-First part the post single-member constituencies.
-Enactment of legislation by simple majority.
-Ministerial appointments by party leaders not by parliament or public poll.
-Outside financial interests of MPs.
-Unelected upper chamber.
-Non-binding manifesto commitments.

...etc etc etc.

 

[SpookyFrank]

But we clearly don't live in a democracy

Was my point, yes.

 

[Pickman's model]

Was my point, yes.

No, it has nothing to do with the proportion voting tory and labour or not voting and everything to do with the distribution of power within the society

 

[SaskiaJayne]

What form of democracy do you want? If one says Brexit was democratic because the popular vote won then our General elections are not democratic because party MPs do not reflect the popular vote. One could argue that our General elections at least produce the government somebody wants whereas PR produces governments nobody wants but equally PR should ensure a centrist government & prevent extremist governments left or right which could be a plan. China, Russia & plenty of other countries do not do democracy because their dictators know that fair elections would not produce the required result.

 

[seventh bullet]

Dictatorship of the proletariat ftw. Next question?

What does this mean?

 

[likesfish]

Having some tryant that you cant get rid of claim to be a marxist is just bollocks.

Worse of all words claiming to be doing it for the good of the people and shooting anyone who disagrees is rubbish.

 

[chilango]

What does this mean?

That I couldn't be bothered to engage with the OP.

 

[isvicthere?]

Some things about the UK parliamentary system which make it fundamentally undemocratic:

-First part the post single-member constituencies.
-Enactment of legislation by simple majority.
-Ministerial appointments by party leaders not by parliament or public poll.
-Outside financial interests of MPs.
-Unelected upper chamber.
-Non-binding manifesto commitments.

...etc etc etc.

All of these. Plus: an effectively unregulated, propaganda-driving mass media, which skews debate into very narrow parameters, and which overwhelmingly pushes the interests of capital and big business over those of labour. As Noam Chomsky says, the trick to controlling a populace in a "democratic" society is have narrow frames of reference, but encourage very lively debate within them.

 

[seventh bullet]

That I couldn't be bothered to engage with the OP.

Too easy.

Having some tryant that you cant get rid of claim to be a marxist is just bollocks.

Worse of all words claiming to be doing it for the good of the people and shooting anyone who disagrees is rubbish.

That isn't quite what I was getting at. Stalin didn't claim to be a Marxist, he was one.

Second para, they were doing it, in their eyes.

 

[1%er]

Democracy now there's an interesting word and concept, what is it? Can you even have democracy under a party system? I think the best system called democratic is in Switzerland as people have a relatively easy way to challenge decisions taken by the various governments, Local, State (Cantons) or Federal.

But in my experience you rarely get the best decisions made by committees or consensus.

 

[chilango]

Too easy.

Nah. Too lazy.

It was a throwaway comment.

 

[SpookyFrank]

No, it has nothing to do with the proportion voting tory and labour or not voting and everything to do with the distribution of power within the society

Any reason it can't be both?

 

[ViolentPanda]

According to some commentators, Hitler was democratically elected ...
Was Hitler democratically elected? | Die Beste Aller Zeiten

According to that article, one must assume that if a party has a majority, they're "democratically elected". Not so given the political system in play in Germany at the time. A clear majority (that is, 51%) was required. The NSDAP didn't achieve that.

Nice googling, though.

And yes, Brexit was 52% in favour, not 55% as I stated.

Both points don't affect the question "Democracy: crap/not crap".

If your perception of democracy differs from the perception of others, then of course it affects the question.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What does this mean?

Let's hope it doesn't mean that chilango wants a vanguard of intellectuals mediating the proletariat's self-government.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

A benevolent dictatorship is the only system that will ever work.

Naturally, I'm happy to take on the lead role as and when the time comes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nah. Too lazy.

It was a throwaway comment.

So you say.

I reckon that you're a secret Trot.

 

[gosub]

no poll.