Democracy: crap/not crap

[nardy]

People do just fine when there aren't vast and powerful institutions working tirelessly to misguide and misinform them according to the interests of the powerful minority.

Well of course, the newspapers and TV news are constantly feeding the proles a diet of right-wing pap. Good job that newspaper circulations have been dropping for years, and that few people swallow what they see on the gogglebox.

 

[billbond]

And enacting the will of the majority is unfair on the minority. Nowhere is this clearer than with the 52% - 48% EU referendum result, a vote decided by a margin any scientist would instantly dismiss as not even significant enough to use as evidence that the entire population hadn't voted on the flip of a coin.

You would not be saying this if it was the other way around
Thats the problem, there was actually a fight on the bus between 2 women my sister was telling me near lewisham station on friday while "discussing" this subject
Madness

 

[SpookyFrank]

So, in the case of, say, 60/40 split opinion, do you propose that the country be divided into a 60/40 geographical proportion, and people herded according to their view? Rinse and repeat for opinion on each subject?

Seriously though, you have to work backwards a little bit and ask where the two options came from in the first place. Who decided the parameters of this black vs white all-or-nothing vote? Who decided it would be this issue, and not any of the infinite number of other things there are to squabble about, which got put to the public vote? Party politics naturally boils everything down to a dichotomy eventually, but in the real world very few absolute dichotomies exist.

The issues which are put forward as broadly up for discussion are far less important than the issues which are never up for discussion. Private property is not up for dicussion. The neoliberal economic model is not up for discussion. Aggressive foreign policy is not up for discussion. And first and last, the system which dictates who we get to choose between, how we get to choose them and when is not up for discussion.

 

[billbond]

Well of course, the newspapers and TV news are constantly feeding the proles a diet of right-wing pap. Good job that newspaper circulations have been dropping for years, and that few people swallow what they see on the gogglebox.

You are joking there is much more LEFT wing stuff directed to the "pap" as you put it
Have you never tuned into the BBC esp Question time, it might as well be called the Left wing weekly News

 

[SpookyFrank]

This may be true but it's an untested theory when it comes to a country of 70 million people.

Less a theory, more a point of general faith in humankind.

 

[bi0boy]

Less a theory, more a point of general faith in humankind.

Even with as much faith as you want, organising 70 million people without using hierarchical authority, but so that things function with sufficient efficiency is a very big ask. Methods of doing it ought to be articulatable in some detail but I haven't seen it done yet.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Even with as much faith as you want, organising 70 million people without using hierarchical authority, but so that things function with sufficient efficiency is a very big ask. Methods of doing it ought to be articulatable in some detail but I haven't seen it done yet.

I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about the mass media/corporate PR/political PR machine, not about the entire political infrastructure. I'm not daft enough to believe we could dismantle the entire state tomorrow morning and everything would be fine because people are lovely really.

 

[billbond]

I think the ONLY people who should be allowed to vote are people who have been or are in University
This would stop all the arguments and lets be honest they are the most educated and are much more up with the news and the politics of the day
They do tend to know whats best for the population and i dont think the vote would be so split
This by the way would be for ALL elections not just EU
i would trust them to have our best interests at heart as they are much more worldly and caring for their fellow man/women
Well its a opinion , dont know how many others feel about this
(excuse type big fingers small phone)

 

[nardy]

You are joking there is much more LEFT wing stuff directed to the "pap" as you put it
Have you never tuned into the BBC esp Question time, it might as well be called the Left wing weekly News

Yes, I was joking. Being sarky.

 

[bi0boy]

I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about the mass media/corporate PR/political PR machine, not about the entire political infrastructure. I'm not daft enough to believe we could dismantle the entire state tomorrow morning and everything would be fine because people are lovely really.

I think the media/corporate/political PR machine is an emergent property of the state. You couldn't have a functioning state without one.

 

[Yossarian]

Surely that proves that you think it's a pile of shit, not that it is a pile of shit.

Only a theory, though it can be tested by looking at the next four people you see and realizing that they would probably be better prime ministers. If I had government funding, I'd like to test the theory by giving Dr. Frankenstein a pile of random corpse parts and seeing whether the four creatures he assembles are more appealing candidates than Thatcher, Major, Blair and Cameron.

 

[nardy]

Seriously though, you have to work backwards a little bit and ask where the two options came from in the first place. Who decided the parameters of this black vs white all-or-nothing vote? Who decided it would be this issue, and not any of the infinite number of other things there are to squabble about, which got put to the public vote? Party politics naturally boils everything down to a dichotomy eventually, but in the real world very few absolute dichotomies exist.

The issues which are put forward as broadly up for discussion are far less important than the issues which are never up for discussion. Private property is not up for dicussion. The neoliberal economic model is not up for discussion. Aggressive foreign policy is not up for discussion. And first and last, the system which dictates who we get to choose between, how we get to choose them and when is not up for discussion.

Yes, but the "system" didn't pop into existence overnight. It evolved over centuries.

I don't say it's perfect. I do say it's better than knocking it down and starting again.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I think the ONLY people who should be allowed to vote are people who have been or are in University
This would stop all the arguments and lets be honest they are the most educated and are much more up with the news and the politics of the day
They do tend to know whats best for the population and i dont think the vote would be so split
This by the way would be for ALL elections not just EU
i would trust them to have our best interests at heart as they are much more worldly and caring for their fellow man/women
Well its a opinion , dont know how many others feel about this
(excuse type big fingers small phone)

Do you think access to university has more to do with intelligence or with money?

With the job market and the cost of a degree as it is a smart person would learn a marketable trade like plumbing and go straight into a good job with little or no debt rather than joining the massed ranks of philosophy graduates fighting tooth and nail for a zero hour contract at Pret a Manger.

 

[Yossarian]

I think the ONLY people who should be allowed to vote are people who have been or are in University
This would stop all the arguments and lets be honest they are the most educated and are much more up with the news and the politics of the day
They do tend to know whats best for the population and i dont think the vote would be so split

Do you think prime ministers have been improving in quality over the decades as the proportion of the population that is university educated has gone up?

 

[billbond]

Can you imagine going into say MacDonalds and

Do you think prime ministers have been improving in quality over the decades as the proportion of the population that is university educated has gone up?

umm see your point , good question and if im honest i would have to say No
Sort of kills my idea in many ways

 

[SpookyFrank]

I don't say it's perfect. I do say it's better than knocking it down and starting again.

Another dichotomy. I don't support either the 'leave it as it is' or the 'burn it all down' option. I would support active resistance to state power where it's misused; as in foreign military capers, corrupt privatisations, systematic abuse of vulnerable groups by police and courts and so on. I would also support localised grassroots movements to provide people with things the state can't or won't, and to actively redress injustices in access to housing, land, education and meaningful work.

Ultimately I would support a decentralised, direct democracy where all decisions and decision makers are accountable to everyone. The successful aspects of centralised states- including infrastructure, science, medicine and logistics- could be preserved and would most likely thrive without the interference of a class of professional politicians who seldom understand the things they're supposedly in charge of.

 

[nardy]

I would also support localised grassroots movements to provide people with things the state can't or won't ...

Ultimately I would support a decentralised, direct democracy where all decisions and decision makers are accountable to everyone.

Oh dear. Sounds like an awful lot of committees.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Oh dear. Sounds like an awful lot of committees.

Ideally no, but realistically there are going to be committees. I don't necessarily oppose representative democracy, and leaving most of the meetings to people who actually like meetings (such creatures do exist) so long as everything was done on a scale people could comprehend and engage with.

 

[likesfish]

Service gauruntees citizenship.
The only thing that Heinleins insane plan has going for it that wouldbe MP's would have to prove themsleves on the battlefield .

I think most people could get behind blair may and IDS etc facing a horde of alien bugs with an SA80

 

[ViolentPanda]

You are joking there is much more LEFT wing stuff directed to the "pap" as you put it
Have you never tuned into the BBC esp Question time, it might as well be called the Left wing weekly News

If you reckon that Question Time is "left wing", then I suggest that your political compass is somewhat broken. A programme that has featured Nigel Farage more times than any other politician in the last 4 years certainly isn't left wing.

 

[gosub]

Service gauruntees citizenship.
The only thing that Heinleins insane plan has going for it that wouldbe MP's would have to prove themsleves on the battlefield .

I think most people could get behind blair may and IDS etc facing a horde of alien bugs with an SA80

Not really, would be hard to work out which cockroaches to support

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think the ONLY people who should be allowed to vote are people who have been or are in University
This would stop all the arguments and lets be honest they are the most educated and are much more up with the news and the politics of the day
They do tend to know whats best for the population and i dont think the vote would be so split
This by the way would be for ALL elections not just EU
i would trust them to have our best interests at heart as they are much more worldly and caring for their fellow man/women
Well its a opinion , dont know how many others feel about this
(excuse type big fingers small phone)

Higher education as a marker of eligibility to vote?

Does that mean that those with a Bachelor's degree get one vote, those with a Master's (NOT an MBA or an Oxford Master's) get two, and people with a PhD get three? That'd only be fair under such a stupid system.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the ONLY people who should be allowed to vote are people who have been or are in University
This would stop all the arguments and lets be honest they are the most educated and are much more up with the news and the politics of the day
They do tend to know whats best for the population and i dont think the vote would be so split
This by the way would be for ALL elections not just EU
i would trust them to have our best interests at heart as they are much more worldly and caring for their fellow man/women
Well its a opinion , dont know how many others feel about this
(excuse type big fingers small phone)

You're taking the piss. Tell me you're taking the piss.

 

[Pickman's model]

Higher education as a marker of eligibility to vote?

Does that mean that those with a Bachelor's degree get one vote, those with a Master's (NOT an MBA or an Oxford Master's) get two, and people with a PhD get three? That'd only be fair under such a stupid system.

One vote per degree

 

[ViolentPanda]

Another dichotomy. I don't support either the 'leave it as it is' or the 'burn it all down' option.

That's because you're a fucking peacenik do-gooding hippy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

One vote per degree

I can live with that (starts pondering how much I can pimp my votes for).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Service gauruntees citizenship.
The only thing that Heinleins insane plan has going for it that wouldbe MP's would have to prove themsleves on the battlefield .

I think most people could get behind blair may and IDS etc facing a horde of alien bugs with an SA80

Unfortunately, at the current stand, the likes of David Davies (former Territorial SAS) or Dan Jarvis (former Paras officer) would be leading the country, neither of whom would be my top pick for a Prime Minister.

 

[SpookyFrank]

That's because you're a fucking peacenik do-gooding hippy.

I'm a middle ground sort of person ultimately. I do think we should definitely burn some of civilisation down, but no more than 25-30%.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm a middle ground sort of person ultimately. I do think we should definitely burn some of civilisation down, but no more than 25-30%.

Yeh put us over the tipping point for 3 degrees why don't you

 

[likesfish]

Unfortunately, at the current stand, the likes of David Davies (former Territorial SAS) or Dan Jarvis (former Paras officer) would be leading the country, neither of whom would be my top pick for a Prime Minister.

Although most of the rest of the house of commons and lords would end up as bug food so some compo